Westchester--It is still a tour player's favorite course

[Robert Mercer Deruntz]

Though  the yardage appears short, Westchester manages to require almost every club in the bag.  In spite of ideal scoring conditions ( the greens were only firm due to Wed. and Thurs. evening storms), the cut was only 1 under par.  a couple of Sat. newspaper articles about the slow pace of play would lead some to believe that the players were dissatisfied with the course.  I know first hand that this is way far from the truth.  My playing partners said this was the best layout they have plaed so far ( both are rookies--great guys who are incredible talents--Arjun Atwell and DJ Brigman), and  I overheard many positive comments on the range and putting green about different holes.  Pat Perez mentioned how he enjoyed standing on a few tees and having to decide the optimal approach for birdie.  Though there is a major need for tree removal, this should not be held against the quality of the course--it is a way underated great course!  By the way the greenside rough was as penal as '98 Olympic.  One player experienced a lost ball only 3 yards over the 5th green ( We accidentally  found the ball looking for my almost lost ball that several people had seen fairly well).  Also, the quality level of play keeps improving--these guys are pretty close to great at all aspects of the game.  The level of putting is now mind boggling--the caddies use electronic levels to measure the slopes of the greens and the players have the strokes to successfully hit their lines.

[Steve Lang]

 

Also one of the best destinations in the world!  Especially when you have favored nation status..

[Brian Phillips]

Robert,

I looked at your stats for your first round and you seemed to struggle with the putting.  Was that you or were the greens difficult to read?

When I watched last night, I couldn't help notice and like the way the fairways were cut (the shape) and the contrast in colour and texture some of the roughs have.  

It seems a nice undulated type of course with some greens perched high etc. is this true?

What was George Lucas' yardage book like.  I am thinking of buying a few of his to study.

Cheers

Brian

[A_Clay_Man]

Robert - First off, I've never been, but have been enjoying this year's coverage.  You might have answwered the former with the latter.

Though there is a major need for tree removal, this should not be held against the quality of the course--it is a way underated great course!  By the way the greenside rough was as penal as '98 Olympic

Is it possible the rough is responsible for the under-rating?

While, I know it is somewhat penal, it's also one-dimensional.

Do you think the course, would be even more fun, if the ball was allowed to go it's bouncing merry way, farther than the 3 inches it gets in the cabbage?

[Robert Mercer Deruntz]

I am certain that the course would be tougher if the rough surrounding the green complexes were cut short.  The greens generally have some wild humps and bumps and some cool tiers.  The 17th is dead flat back right, but 1.0 back /front slope on the back left--this explains why people have trouble with the back left pin.  There are a multitiude of great pin locations on just about every hole.   I have been a statistically poor putter and this tournament was another painful experience(I qualified with a 66 that had 1 18 ft birdie, 3 two putts, and a 6footer).  The reason why the course is set up with the rough is the US Open factor--Only a couple Open favorites are missing.  This traditional role of the course is maintained throughout the season --guests ( a heavy number) always like playing what the pros played!  

[Robert Mercer Deruntz]

George Lucas's book is invaluable in tournament play.  It does not do the electronic level readings--since there is possible varience in slope readings by positions that differ only by inches.      

[A_Clay_Man]

I am certain that the course would be tougher if the rough surrounding the green complexes were cut short.

This is a wonderful comment and one that I believe is crux to the "standard" maintenance presentation, that is pervasive throughout the land. And it is the following

The reason why the course is set up with the rough is the US Open factor--Only a couple Open favorites are missing.  This traditional role of the course is maintained throughout the season --guests ( a heavy number) always like playing what the pros played!  

Do you think there will be any mention next week of the ambiguity in course set-up at Shineythinghy?

As I understand it, you can't just go in, and retrain the grass, this late in the season. (unless the temp droped for a spell??Paging professional truf heads)
Therefore, it's up to the membership, and specifically their greens committee, to learn exactly what the ideal meld, for their course is, and present it as such.

If the pga wants something else, so be it, somewhere else.

Heck, what's $17,000 per member. Tip money?

[Robert Mercer Deruntz]

The course can be very penal.  However,  there are only 4 holes that a shot cannot be bumped onto the green--2,6, 13, and 14.  TV may take  away the view of options, but most holes offer choices on both the tee balls and second shots.  It really is a thinking course for the good player.  Also, the leaderboard is displaying a very classy level of player.  Great courses usually will bring out the attributes of the best, not to mention the shortfallings of the others!

[ForkaB]

Robert

Many thanks for your thoughtful and candid first hand observations.  I am particularly taken with your comment that:

"I am certain that the course would be tougher if the rough surrounding the green complexes were cut short."

To what degree does this relate to elite players such as yourself?  I.e. do you think that classic courses such as Westchester would be "tougher" also for the hackers on this site (i.e. players Scratch and above....).  I think I know that we hacker afficionados would have much more fun playing a Westchester where the surrounds were shaved rather than one where we would really have to "hack" the ball out of greenside cabbage.......

As a corrollary, if the set up at Westchester (or say, Shinnecock......) had more emphasis on recovery through angles and strategic thought rather than pure strength, would it still "identify" the best players over the 4 days--or even identify them with a greater degree of certainty........?

Thanks for any reply, in advance.

[Robert Mercer Deruntz]

I am not really a big fan of rough, but I usually am very competenty in deep greeenside rough.  The reason why Westchester would be toougher for the elite player with little greenside rough is because there are very severe falloffs right, left and behind almost every green.  In the 1st round I flew my 4 iron 12 feet past the pin on 16 and took a giant hop of 15 yards and had an impossible up and down--I made a good bogey playing to a safe pitch angle.  Without rough the average player has an opportunity to simply knock the ball on the green and walk away with a bogey--not an acceptable score for a pro.  The pro would have a super hard recovery from the same location.  By the way, my comment on the 17th green was painfully experienced by Harrington.  The whole back segment of the green looks flat.  The right half is almost flat.  Very, very hard to notice, the back left has a decent back front slope--1.0.  Harrington knocked his 12 footer about 10 feet by the hole--He sure looked befuddled on how the putt just kept going.  I even think he he thought he sunk the putt, but the speed was so fast that it shot through the line--True greatness in a green!

[Adam_F_Collins]

Robert, when I was watching the final round, there seemed to be some players having some trouble with the short par 4 number 10. What is your opinion of the hole from a player's standpoint?

Do you enjoy this type of short par four? Do you think it presents an appropriate challenge for tour-level players?

[A_Clay_Man]

Mr. Deruntz- Isn't the greatest positive, in "low-mowing" the surrounds at WCC ( or really anywhere undualted) would be the creativity needed to use the terrain? Along with the multitude of clubs, and shot choices? Versus the chop out of cabbage with everyone's favorite implement?

[Robert Mercer Deruntz]

The guys I played with loved both 7 and 10.  The short par 4 is the coolest type of hole.  I played 7 conservatively in the 1st round and had a 4 footer for birdie.  Atwal and Brigman went for it and had no realistic birdie oppotunity.  On day 2, the pin was up top (3rd tier) and I went for a smooth bogey.  They laid up and made birdies.  On 10we all went for it, Atwal was front fringe--birdie.  DJ and I missed right, he ended up 35 feet from 15 yards, and I had to actually pitch iut into the front left bunker for my par.  I really think This week's chipping area's and next year's venue could have a long term effect upon the implementation of rough.  This will only happen if TV shows how much they play with the players psyches.  Tight lie shots under pressure are tougher for the good player than deep rough--ther is a greater margin of error in rough just like bunkers.

[Thomas_Brown]

Perez certainly was the guy to comment on birdies.
When I looked on Sat. he was #1 in birdies made at Westchester.