Most Underrated Course ???

[Matt_Ward]

Since the most overrated course thread is ongoing I'd like to see the group's thoughts on the reverse issue -- the most underrated.

I have a few to mention and will start with one that's in my own backyard -- Plainfield CC. Superb restoration effort by Gil Hanse and a layout that is literally unknown by the great many -- including those who consider themselves course experts. In my travels I can't see why Plainfield doesn't crack the top 30-35 in the USA and why so few people even believe the course is in the top five in the immediate metro area of NY / NJ / CT.

[Matt Dupre]

It depends what you mean by underrated - not recognized by the masses because it's not on television or hosting majors, or not recognized as a great golf course by those who should know...

I personally feel that Plainfield is a great golf course, and I would never turn down an invitation to play.  I think it could be considered underrated because of where it is and the fact that it's kept a fairly low profile.  If it was in, say, Massachusetts, its only "competitors" would be TCC and Salem IMO.  In the Met, there are so many places and so many people arguing about them.

Down here in Philly, I think my club -Rolling Green - is underrated because it doesn't have the pedigree of some of the more well-knowns.  When I tell people who haven't played it that we hosted the 1976 Women's Open, they're shocked and then may have a faint memory.  When I tell them that Joanne Carner and Sandra Palmer tied with +8, and that Carner won the playoff 74 - 76 they're even more surprised.  

When golf courses are compared, it's so difficult to separate the course and the reputation.  For any GCAer to come up with a place that's underrated for discussion purposes, it's going to have enough of a reputation that more than a few people are aware of it.

A course that I love that you rarely hear anything about outside of Pittsburgh is Fox Chapel.

[Paul Richards]

Plainfield is a course you don't hear much about, but it is also on most Top 100 lists, so I can't really say that it is underrated - though it is spectacular.

Without any hesitation, I can honestly say that My Home Course, Beverly CC in Chicago, is one of the most underrated courses I have ever seen.

After spending time on Golf Digest's first 6 lists, Beverly fell off into oblivion, although everyone around Chicago knew how good it was.

My thought is that after completion of the Ron Prichard Master Plan, which incorporates bringing back many of the original Donald Ross features, Beverly will finally get its due once again.

 

[Steve Lapper]

Another to add, once again with the recent Hanse restoration, would clearly be Fenway. I grew up playing frequently here and really loved it. I haven't seen it post Hanse, but some very well repsected and knowledgable friends tell me it is a world better than before.

I have it high up on my list to play this year and will report back in detail.

[Gene Greco]

Fenway.

Slapper, great choice! A sporty Winged Foot! Greens are a blast, great flow. Take some trees out to open up a few more lines of play and I believe it would greatly enhance an already great course.

I guess I'll pick my own......Cruden Bay.

Uneventful finish to a roller coaster of a ride. Quirky fun in a flat out spectacular setting. Its in my personal world top 20.

[TEPaul]

Most underrated course? There's no question it's my beloved  Fernindina Beach Muni but of course none of these convoluted rating people would ever understand it. If there're 25,000 courses in this world they would rate it between 24,900 and 25,000. The Fernindina Beach Muni is definitely a hidden gem--but obviously with a good deal of stress on the "hidden" part!

[redanman]

WELL!  I have to jump in here and say that MY HOME COURSE Lehigh CC by Flynn is the most underrated Flynn course in existence, if not the most underrated course in the world.  Maybe Lancaster near Philly beats it, but that's it.  In reality, many in the Philly area have never even seen it.

--No real mistakes.  Anywhere!!!  (Those wizards at CBS at the Crosby this week said yesterday on USA USA USA Network that all the old courses have at least one dud-They must be reading Fazio again.   )

-We have no tree problems.

-There are several spectacular holes adding to the experiential factor.

-Some of the best uphill holes in golf.

-What I think is the weakest hole on the course, Mark Fine  (According to his tome in My Home Course-linkable off to the left there) thinks is the best hole on the course. (Actually it is not a bad hole at all, just the weakest.)

-We have no Stupid Trees.

-It finishes strong!

-There is a great set of par 3's.

-Did I say there were no tree problems?

(We can't nominate our home courses, can we?)

Back to the posted topic and Matt's contention.....

....... this a.m. (Where, I won't say) I was just thinking of Plainfield as a "Ran Morrissett Match Play" contender against Pebble Beach (A tone-a-mint that is sometimes painful to watch   since it is on the tube with all those "celebrities" (Thank goodness for Bill Murray!) and Plainfield wins.  (I won't bore with the tedium, do it yourself, if you have nothing better to do.)

Plainfield is chronically not given the level of reverence that it deserves, mostly because of a perceived "weak" 18th hole (Which of course loses to PBGL #18!!!!!)

Not a bad pick, Matt.

[yogi_barry]

Fernandina Beach Muni...?

Why do you like that course so much..?  I just live 45 minutes south, and have not heard much about it...  Do tell...

[ForkaB]

I'll make two nominations.

In the international category--Carnoustie.  As good as any course in Britain and Ireland.  Great variety of holes, multiple options off of many tees, fascinating routing, challenging to all levels of player, multiple angles.  Grossly underated due to the drabness of its setting and the folly that was the 1999 Open.

In the domestic category--Applebrook.  To me every bit as good as Pacific Dunes, Bandon Dunes or Kingsbarns (the three new courses of comparable quality I have played).  Tremendous routing, seamless green to tee transitions, great variety, fascinating green sites, Kittleman bunkers.  Why it seems to still be below the radar screen of the "raters" I do not know.  Exclusivity?  Hell no, even I got on there!  The waterfall?  Let's grow up, guys.  Too many pieces of carapace in the turtle soup?  Maybe........

[A_Clay_Man]

BillV- Not to nitpick or anything but the comment yesterday was by Fherety(sp?) and he said the every great course has at least one bad hole. I don't remember which hole he may have been calling bad, but in any case he is wrong. There are no bad holes at Pebble only bad golfers.

There was alot of b.s.ing going on during that telecast but since so few know the truth it gets past on as such.

[Will E]

Still can't understand why I don't see Skokie or Blackforest in the top 100.
While I adore Fisher's Island I don't understand ranking it  higher than NGLA.

[Ran Morrissett]

What are common characteristics of courses that would help them be underrated by the masses?

1) under 6,300 yards in length e.g. Swinley Forest

2) less than par 70 e.g. West Sussex, St. Enodoc

3) below average conditions of the prepared playing surfaces e.g. The Addington, Yale, Apache Stronghold, High Pointe

4) perceived as too easy (i.e. wide off the tee) and that the pros would tear it up e.g. National Golf LInks of America, Rustic Canyon

5) too quirky/unique/difficult to easily "categorize" e.g. Royal North Devon as well as Eastward Ho!, Pennard

6) subtle features e.g. Hidden Creek

7) lack of a high profile event to stamp the course as great e.g. Newcastle in Australia

lack of recognition for recent work performed there e.g. Skokie, as Shooter points out

9) a course so simple in appearance and so blessed with natural topography that the architect evidently hardly did anything e.g. Brora

10) any course that isn't 18 holes e.g. Royal Worlington & Newmarket (yes it has a great reputation but who has the guts to vote for it in the world top 50?)

Thankfully there are "underrated" courses. After all, it is hard to come away pleasantly surprised when you go to a course like Sunningdale Old with its century long reputation for being AWESOME.

Cheers,

[Jeff Goldman]

I would add a factor that is implicit in Ran's list:  The lack of WOW factor - no cliffs, mountains, ocean or lakeside holes, etc.  That's why I second Beverly as the most underrated course I know, which admittedly isn't much.  Although I've only been there a couple of times, a few years ago, and before I was interested in GCA, I still recall much about it, even without the WOW features.  Must be the course.  

13 days to Pinehurst!!  20 degrees in Chicago.

Jeff Goldman

[ForkaB]

Ran

Interestingly, your poster child for simplicity (Brora) also scores well on points 1-7!  That being said, and even though I consider myself to be one of Brora's top fans on this site, I do not think it is underrated.  10 years ago, perhaps, but not today.  And yet, 10 or so of us GCAers will be playing there early in May, and I'll be interested in hearing their collective wisdom on the subject.......

[TEPaul]

Yogi:

You're asking me to "do tell" about the Fernindina Beach Muni?

Ok, I might say it could be the last word in the concept of "minimalism". Total cost of construction is believed to have been $791.18. Even if I sing its praises on here please don't make the 45 minute trip north to see it on my account as the course just might be something that takes a most unusual aquired taste--which would be mine. Occasionally my acquired taste requires a very broad brush view of golf as well as a rather large dose of facetiousness!

But 9th hole of the Fernindina Beach Muni is where one of the greatest golfing moments of my life took place. My wife who theretofore had hit almost every single shot of her limited golfing career about 50 yards and 50 yards right hauled off and ripped one well over 220 yds with a beautiful draw. This happened after I finally fixed her grip position. As I said once before on here she looked over at me and mouthed; "What the f... was that?"

But wives being wives, as ecstatic as we both were over that shot she steadfastly refused to use that grip again! You see my wife is of Irish extraction and those Irish gals have their very own unique view of the world. There's no real practical reason to try to reason with them and less reason to argue with them.

So henceforth, for her, all her shots have gone about 50 yards and about 50 yards right--that is when she doesn't miss the ball altogether.

So given all that good stuff can you not imagine why I wouldn't love the Fernindina Beach Muni? It was where the natural laws of physics appear to have been momentarily altered.

[Ran Morrissett]

Jeff,

Very good and true point.

Rich,

Another aspect to consider  - how do you think your merry band of men and their overall opinion of Brora would be altered/modified if they were told that Alister MacKenzie had carefully and painstakingly routed Brora? In this day and age, a "chic architect" associated to a course seems good for an awful lot of brownie points. Courses with an unknown pedigree of architect like Royal Ashdown Forest (and Brora to a certain extent as Braid was there for < 72 hours or so) seem to not be taken as seriously as a course with a name architect.

Cheers,

[CHrisB]

Other courses that may be underrated by the masses are those who reside in the shadow of a much more famous sister course, rendering nearly impossible any attempt to evaluate them on their own merits without comparisons to their neighbors.

I'm thinking of courses like the Valley Course at Royal Portrush, the New Course at St. Andrews (the Eden as well), the Queens Course at Gleneagles, the River Course at Kiawah Island, and from what I've heard the Cashen Course at Ballybunion and the Upper Course at Baltusrol.  True, they don't stack up against their older sisters, but they might be rated more highly if they existed on their own.

But my most underrated course is Western Gailes.  It is often bypassed on trips to Scotland in favor of the Open Courses (TOC, Muirfield, Carnoustie, Troon, Turnberry); tourist favorites like Prestwick, North Berwick, and Gleneagles; and off-the-beaten path gems like Royal Dornoch, Cruden Bay, and even Machrihanish.  But it is has a unique layout, a good variety of par-4's and an excellent stretch of dune holes, especially the 5th-7th (the par-5 6th green is just plain fun).  Very low profile, which is just the way they want it!

[Ran Morrissett]

Point 13 could be if a course is public and cheap to play, then it can't be any good. After all how can the municipal course in Wilmington possibly compare to a course that costs $200 to play and offers GPS on its carts? Who will side with the merits of Rustic Canyon when compared to an exclusive private club like SFGC which features a name Golden Age designer and little play?

Point 14 could be a bad clubhouse. If the clubhouses at Pine Valley and Royal Melbourne were switched, you might have a new world number 1 - dumb but true.

[ddavid426]

Hear Hear!!!  Western Gailes is fabulous.  Glad to see someone echo my feelings.  I wonder if anyone has had a peek at Southern Gailes next door.  Supposed to open this year.

[Ben Cowan-Dewar]

Criticisms that are accepted as gospel, without further examination.

The renumbering of holes at Banff, are a good example.  

Rosedale (Toronto) is generally put down due to a weak finishing hole.  It is tough not to find at least one bad hole on every top 100 course in Canada.  It also fits the "too easy", "too short" model.

Gleneagles Kings, due to the proximity of great links courses, it suffers because of the inland setting.

[NAF]

Even more so by watching it on TV today, I think New South Wales Golf Club is underrated.  While the bunkering might not be what it could be and some of the green contouring has been changed, the routing and design of this course is a greater sum than its parts.  You have to love a course that has a hole like #5 where I had only 110 yards into the hole by clearing the ridge that bisects the fairway but today when the wind blew guys like Appleby and Craig Parry just made it to the fairway (or in Appleby's case into doom on the right side sand dune).

I most heartily agree with the Slapper about Fenway.  Of the parkland courses I have played it is signifigantly undervalued and after seeing SFGC is close enough in stature to reckon being as good.  Just cut some more trees down!

I also think some of the heathland courses get shortchanged because of their par designations and distances.  Woking is as crafty as a layout that exists and a course like Sunningdale New is a Colt classic.  Although I prefer the Old, on my last visit I started to wonder if the New as its equal.

[redanman]

Adam

Whwat's that barking in the background at PBL, seals?

No.  It's #12.  There are others, no sense in arguing that, but on 12, unless stimp 8 greens or sponge greens, one of which is seen often, one that is never seen any more, 12 gets silly.  Not unfair, not unplayable, maybe not even bad, but stupid.  But we shouldn't criticize a "National Treasure".

[Matt_Ward]

I have to agree with those who have mentioned Skokie. The restoration effort by Ron Prichard was indeed masterfully done. When I see Shoreacres and Medinah #3 ahead of Skokie I just have to chuckle.

A good point was raised by MDupre. Plainfield is underrated because so few major events have been held at the club and because when courses in the metro NY / NJ area are weighed and rated it's often at the Garden State's expense. Does anyone in his right mind really believe Maidstone is ahead of Plainfield. Obviously, many people do. I can't see it.

Ditto when Plainfield is compared to Quaker Ridge. The former has some of the finest greens you can play and although I do like the Tillie design in Westchester I don't see how again Plainfield takes a back seat.

Plainfield is rightly in the top 100 in America but like Skokie it's a layout that very few REALLY pay much attention to.

Like I said previously I believe a good case can be made that Plainfield can be ranked among the top five in the metro area of NY / NJ. To me that says plenty because at that high a level the course would easily crack the top 30-35 courses in the country.

One last point -- redanman does point out the weakness of the 18th hole, however, the totality of the course is truly something to behold.

P.S. I do agree with those who have mentioned Fenway and Lehigh. Both are superb courses that so few really appreciate when in their respective neighborhoods!

[NAF]

Redanman, Matt and John Lovito (who I played Pebble with last week)...I write this with no bias but having played Pebble about 6 times now and Plainfield about 7 or 8 (pre and post Gil's work) I think I'd like to take the challenge of match play.


#1-Plainfield 1 up
#2-Plainfield 2up
#3-Plainfield 1up
#4-Plainfield 1up
#5-Plainfield 1up
#6-All square
#7 Pebble Beach 1up
#8 PB 2up
#9 PB 3up
#10 PB 4up
#11 PB 3up
#12 PB 2up
#13 PB 2up
#14 PB 3up
#15 PB 2up
#16 PB 1up
#17 AS
#18 PB 1up

Pretty damn close..The only question I find on this is whether #4 at PB squeaks by #4 at Plainfield and how one views #13.

[Paul Richards]

Shivas:

While I agree with you that Cruden Bay is an AWESOME course, I'm not sure that underrated is the word that comes to mind.

In Golf Magazine's last four rankings of the Top 100 Courses in the World, Cruden Bay has placed #99 (1995), #73 (1997), #52 (1999) and #57 (2001) on the world list.

While I might argue it should be ranked higher, I don't believe that anyone is "forgetting about it" while holding a #52-in-the-world ranking.

As far as the job that Ron Prichard did at Skokie - it is marvelous and Skokie should be on someone's Top 100 list right now.

My whole point is that Prichard's plan at Beverly is only partially completed.  When done, I believe it will blow away what he did for Skokie.  Beverly has much better topography and a greater variety of interesting golf holes.  

Not to take anything away from Skokie because it is an excellent course, but I believe that anyone who likes what has been done to Skokie should see the restored Beverly, because it will be absolutely spectacular.