[T_MacWood]

It is fairly well known that Alison was called in to review Flynn's plan for the new Shinnecock Hills and that he gave it a glowing report. When was he called in, and is it known why he was engaged? I'm wondering if some at the club may have felt the design was too radical and were looking for reasurance.

[TEPaul]

Tom MacWood:

Alison's report is not dated but we believe it was written in May 1929. I don't know why Alison was called in (maybe Wayne does--or David Goddard). It seems to me it was just a second opinion because Lucien Tyng was in the process of considering buying various pieces of land to make up what is now the present Shinnecock course (largely due to the new road--rte #27 that was coming in to the south of the clubhouse and messing up Macd/Raynor's Shinnecock course).

Flynn did various routing iterations on these proposed purchases (holes on one tract that was never bought). There are actually some interesting east/west holes on those iterations that were obviously never built---the Flynn holes that were built bisect some of them them!

Alison's report is his usual really good work and extremely inciteful and explanatory--not unlike the report he did for PVGC for the 1921 Advisory Committee.

Colt, Alison, Morrison, Ltd. also had an office at 110 East 42nd St, NYC, NY.

[wsmorrison]

The Alison report was dated May 16, 1929.  I'm not sure to whom it was addressed , but as Tom said, this general survey was probably done to reassure Tyng that the land he was going to acquire was suitable and the plan was optimal for the site.

This evaluation is very illuminating.  I'll mention of few of the interesting points.  It was Alison that wanted the garage removed and the tee on 14 moved closer to the road.  The advantage to this would be that 18 green could be moved up the hill further to finish nearer the clubhouse.  This was not done, possibly due to the steepness of the hill above the current 18th.  On the 5th hole, Alison indicates that on the second shot, some high ground was reduced in height in order to show the green and the hollow in front.  There is no mention of the 7th being retained just that it is quite unlike the other three (he also states that the 17th hole is quite unlike the other three--so I'm not sure what he is indicating by the statement).  Finally, it would appear from the report that Flynn intended to sink the 9th green somewhat--apparently from the M/R green location, especially at the entrance and "marry it with the ground to the right of the entrance."  This was done with great results, the green looks like it sits perfectly on the site.

It is interesting to note that Alison wanted to go into design business with Flynn in 1921.  It isn't clear that Flynn considered doing so although Hugh Wilson, Piper, and Oakley all said that it would be a bad idea and that Flynn had a brilliant future on his own.  I think he proved them right.

[wsmorrison]

I forgot to add, and Tom Paul was correct in his suspicions, that the site of the 14th green is not in a natural depression, it just looks very natural.  Alison wrote "For the second shot, the valley will be opened up by reducing the height of the small ridge which crosses it.  The present intention is to form the green by raising the back rather than depressing the front."

[Brian Phillips]

Tom and Wayne,

Now this is enough!! When the hell are you guys going to bring this damn book out...

Can you not give us a date?

Brian

[wsmorrison]

Brian,
December 31st.  What, you want the year too?  Honestly, I think we'll finish the book by the end of the year and likely see it in print sometime next year.  I sure hope so anyway.  It is a joy to work on but a lot of work.  I never would've believed when we first started that we would come up with such a huge amount of research material.  It is taking a long time to figure it all out--but we're making progress.  Keep putting the squeeze on us, we need a kick in the pants every now and again to stay on track.
Best,
Wayne

[wsmorrison]

Why?  I can assure you that a number of people will see the manuscript and have time to comment on the contents.  But what are you wary of in particular?

[wsmorrison]

If you aren't worried about the content, is it the font we use that might make you uncomfortable?  If you don't mind being forthright, just step up and tell us what you are concerned about.  You seem to have a mind-set against whatever it is we are doing....even though you have no idea what it is.

[TEPaul]

Wayne;

Do you think redanman has always been this much of a pain in the ass "know it all"? I do!

[Brian Phillips]

You know you guys are finding out so much, do you think you will have to do it in two volumes or will the publishers let you put everything into one book?

Brian

[T_MacWood]

Very interesting info on Alison's report.

What was Tyng's position with the club? I know he was a very wealthy man, a philanthropist who provided the land for the golf course expanision, and of course he was a member of the club, did he also hold a position within the club?

Don't you think it is a little unusual to have a well established architect's design reviewed by one of his contemporaries and rivals? Flynn was at the zenith of his career. Is it possible that Flynn brought Alison in himself to reassure the club?

[wsmorrison]

Lucien Tyng was the President of Shinnecock Hills Golf Club at the time of Flynn's design work.

I have wondered why Flynn's work, his talents in full bloom, still neccesitated an analysis by Alison.  If Alison's work at Timber Point or other NY area clubs (Century, Colony, Fressh Meadow, Old Oaks, and Park) was so highly regarded by Tyng that he was brought in to review the plan for the course, why wasn't he selected to do the design work himself?  I would speculate that Tyng found his man in Flynn but was an extremely thorough man that did not embark on a project such as the SHGC without a second opinion.  Even in 1927, when Tyng purchased the additional 108 acres north and east of the clubhouse, it was a considerable expense and he wanted to make sure they got it right.  I don't think it was Flynn's idea to bring in Alison for the report, that does not make sense to me.  Flynn was more than likely completely sure of his ideas, but someone thought it necessary for the evaluation of the plan and the reassurance it gave.

[TEPaul]

I don't think any of us should just assume it was unusual for Shinnecock (or Lucien Tyng) to generate a review of Flynn's Shinnecock plan.

Why did Shinnecock even pick William Flynn? We don't really know although I heard years ago (before I got interested in golf course architecture) that Flynn's "angel" at Shinnecock was one Quan Trippe (the founder of Pan American Airlines). (I know his grandson and am trying to generate something about this from the Trippe side. Did it perhaps have something to do with the fact that Flynn was undeniably fascinated or fixated by flying in anything that would get off the ground?).

We should also seriously contemplate that Alison and Flynn may have been pretty good friends or at least regular acquaintances. They had to have worked together at PVGC in some capacity. We have some letters from Hugh Wilson (to Piper and Oakley) mentioning that Alison wanted to actually form a partnership with Flynn in the early 1920s.

We should also realize that many of these men from New York, Shinnecock, and many of the Long Island clubs knew those from Philadelphia and those from the high profile courses there---such as PVGC and Merion.

The interconnection of the so-called "wasp" world back in those days was incredibly strong and tight in that most of those men knew each other well and depended on each other for advice. The relatively young USGA was also very much part of this.

William Flynn (and Alison to some extent) was very well connected to this sort of "society". Flynn's career client list clearly shows a plying of these interesting connections. Many on his client list were some of the most powerful men in America and certainly on the east coast!

It's also very possible that Alison may have offered his review of the Shinnecock plan for free. That too was not uncommon for many of those early architects. Flynn probably worked for PVGC for free. Maxwell certainly always did!

There is another very interesting facet of the Toomey and Flynn organization. That is, although they were perhaps not the first (Macd/Raynor, Ross's massive albeit loosely integrated organization) they were definitely one of the best full-service and intergrated companies offering both unified design and construction. In this sense they may have been  sort of the precusor to architectural "one stop shopping"! Their detailed design iterations and specific cost analyses were probably pretty novel for that early time! (That modus operandi is also a God-send to architectural researchers now!)

That type of thing obviously appealed to many of these high powered New York businessmen who were more than a little bit aware of business "efficiencies" (You should see the paces the Rockefeller family put the Toomey and Flynn organization through when they were designing and building the reversable nine hole Pocantico Hills course for them! In that case the cliche "Ever wonder why they got so rich" is very apparent!).

[TEPaul]

redanman;

That's excellent advice. But when and if it turns out that way please don't say it was you that thought of it because you aren't!  

[George_Bahto]

Wayne and Tom: boy you're in trouble now - you've got them all thinking about the  "Hey, when is this book coming out" thing.

That's what I heard for about 4 years - probably rightfully so, but while you're "digging" out the material that no one knows about, people don't understand the amount of material that keeps changing what you've been thinking.

But not to worry, it actually builds an "anticipation" for the finished product.

It's a lot easier for a "real" writer but for me, a rank amateur, it was a tough project.

Gib Papazian, my main-man, was a God-sent and I will forever be in his debt for making me sound like I knew what I was talking about.

Don't listen to these outside pressures and just get it right.

It was wonderful not to hear that fateful question: "When will the book be finished?"   .....   at least for a while.

Now they're started with: "When will the second book be finished?"

Hang in there guys!!!!!!!!    

[wsmorrison]

Thanks, George.  Getting it right is at the top of our priority list.  It sure looks like it will be worth the wait, for us and those wanting to learn about Flynn's work and his times.
Best,
Wayne

[TEPaul]

"That's what I heard for about 4 years - probably rightfully so, but while you're "digging" out the material that no one knows about, people don't understand the amount of material that keeps changing what you've been thinking."

George:

You've definitely got that right! But when it comes to changing the way we've been thinking about Flynn--I don't think so. For a couple of years now our thinking on Flynn has been pretty interesting. What will be fascinating to see, though, is how a lot of other people will look at the way Flynn looked at a lot of things to do with golf and architecture and that IT MAY NOT NECESSARILY HAVE BEEN THE WAY A LOT OF PEOPLE ON HERE THINK HE THOUGHT OR SHOULD HAVE THOUGHT!!

We're out to tell the truth of his entire story and career that all this material will tell and is telling us. In the process we may actually shatter and upset some peoples perconceptions or misconceptions about some things--maybe even some of these so-called purists on here.

I'm after a guy like redanman who thinks he knows everything there is to know about Flynn and what he was doing and trying to do--or even that he may know what was better on a Flynn course than Flynn did.

This will include subjects such as;

1. Trees in golf architecture
2. Flynn's conception of strategy (both the "Philly School" concept of "shot testing" (on some designs) as well as how less talented golfers were ideally expected to perform---GIR?--what's that?).
3. Elasticity and tee length addition.
4. Early architectural "framing".

redanman is very right to say a book like this should be easy to read and informative for people on green committees and such as a primer on how these courses should be treated today maintenance-wise and architecturally but if redanman says there might not be that much for him to learn, he'd definitely be wrong about that!

If we can present the truth of all this it'll be interesting to see if it really does educate--both those who never claimed to know much about Flynn or architecture as well as those like redanman who already thinks he knows everything there is to know about Flynn and architecture!  

Again, some things may piss off the purists!

So What?

[T_MacWood]

Wayne
Its not unprecedented to have an architect (even a confident one) call upon another architect to help either silence critics within the club (especially in the case of a radical or unique design) or simply to provide advice, or another opinion. MacKenzie called for Colt at Alwoodley; Thomas asked MacKenzie to look at Riviera; Emmet and Macdonald at Women's National.

If I'm not mistaken Tyng was a member of the NGLA and a friend of Macdonald's...if I were Flynn I'd rather have Alison review my design, as opposed to CB.

[wsmorrison]

Tom MacWood,

I thought Colt brought Mackenzie in to collaborate on the Alwoodley project.  At least that is what I recall being said in the Cornish and Whitten book (they've been wrong before).

Although it may not be unprecedented, it seems as though it was unusual in any case.  Of course there are examples of collaboration but this was not a collaborative exercise but rather an evaluation of a proposed plan that was eventually left intact.

I completely agree with you about Alison being preferred to submit an evaluation over CB, at least from what I've read about the man.  Also this was a complete (or nearly so--I better check with redanman) redesign of CB's work at SHGC and not more than 15 years old.  Still, it was nice that Alison bore no grudges towards Flynn for he did not accept a proposal to partner with him.  But the design was so good, who could find substanitive fault with it?

[TEPaul]

redanman:

As far as YOUR opinion of what I need--it really doesn't matter a whit to me!

[TEPaul]

It's certainly possible that Alison and Flynn mayv'e been called in together to look at Shinnecock and make some proposals. It may be just a style of writing on Alison's part but a number of times in his report he does use the word "we", as in "We tried out a scheme for finishing at the back of the Club House, with a view to dodging the climb (to #18 green) still further, but we are entirely satisfied that although this scheme has some merit, its disadvantages outweigh its advantages."

[TEPaul]

"to whit, Tom, just make sure that the French edition is a good well-edited read."

The French edition?? That's funny. If there's to be anything in this book for the French it'll be a simple note somewhere which says if the French have any interest in golf architecture or William Flynn they can all bloody well learn to read about it and him in AMERICAN English!!    
 
 

[Jeff_Mingay]

Tom... every golf architecture junkie in Quebec just deleted GolfClubAtlas.com from their "favourites" list  

We may never hear from Jeremy Glenn again!

[TEPaul]

Jeff:

Do the Quebecers really like the French so much? I had great admiration for De Gaulle and like him I like France itself but as he said himself he was not that fond of the French!  

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