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Bob_Huntley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Economics of Rustic Canyon
« Reply #25 on: June 08, 2004, 12:56:55 PM »
Jeff Mingay gets it!  (As if he never would)

Jeff Brauer,
I hear this same stuff from Forrest all of the time, and frankly, this is what puzzles me about modern day golf architecture.  I think of Bel Air and other canyon course in the area that have been around for years without the drainage of which you speak, and while every 25 years or so, there might be a flood that does some damage, so you get back in there and you fix what you can, and its part of the course's evolution. Riviera is a prime example of this.





Tommy,

Having lived on the La Mesa Drive side of Riviera, I can assure you there was major work done on drainage there. In fact, I think the Corps of Engineers did the work at governmental expense. The barranca alongside the eleventh and twelth holes down to the exit at the sixth received a steel pipe big enough to hold a small bus. You would never believe it was there after the grow-in.

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Economics of Rustic Canyon
« Reply #26 on: June 08, 2004, 01:04:29 PM »
Bob,

I referred to that as well.

I wonder how many more private courses will ever get government assistance in fixing their drainage problems. It may be justified at the Riv, because of city development upstream and their contribution to the local economy, but it never looks good for a cash strapped government to be that nice to a wealthy club, at least in this current political climate.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

A_Clay_Man

Re:Economics of Rustic Canyon
« Reply #27 on: June 08, 2004, 01:13:11 PM »
Jeff,  ;D "That Nice"? How about just a wee bit of the tax break? Whatever it's called? Posssesseery. WHat is that please? for us extremely ignorant(and grateful).

Bob_Huntley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Economics of Rustic Canyon
« Reply #28 on: June 08, 2004, 01:28:14 PM »
Jeff,

It was a necessary precaution to prevent the waters that would come racing down Mandeville Canyon, from wiping out the housing below the course. Hence governmental intervention.

Geoff_Shackelford

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Economics of Rustic Canyon
« Reply #29 on: June 08, 2004, 01:37:44 PM »
Jeff Mingay,
Of course such a concept was never proposed to the owner because it is not how Gil and Jim work, and would have looked ludicrous. The county would never have supported the project if it was just another big earth rearranging-fest that obliterated the wildlife corridor.

Dick,
I agree, Jeff Brauer is sharing a most unique perspective and helping us understand why many members of the ASGCA might still be struggling to get a golf course approved on the Rustic Canyon site. His remark that the ground features could have been replicated without all but a few noticing continues to elicit big laughs here in Santa Monica!

The approach Jeff has shared would still be stuck in the planning process trying to convince US Fish and Wildlife, California Fish and Game and the Army Corps that a flood control channel and fill were necessary to deal with the native wildlife corridor. This area was considered untouchable because it provided flood control under most circumstances (except a 100-year flood or the very unique events we saw last fall caused by the fires). When the hills had all of their vegetation, you could visit after a 5-inch rain (as I did twice) and not see any running water in the area supposedly in need of flood control! It's all sand.  This native area was also a great place for the local (and rare) habitat to do its thing. Eliminating it or altering it in any way would have killed the project, and would have been uncalled for both from a golf and environmental perspective.
 
Jeff Brauer,
It was one thing to speculate, but not appropriate to make a suggestion that implies professional irresponsibility on Gil's part without knowing anything about the site or the local politics. But I'm not surprised, as I know many architects are singing the minimalism blues these days, looking for openings to put down an approach they don't respect.

As for Riviera, that was an Army Corps project. The club had no choice but to cooperate. It was not a matter of public and private, but a matter of flood control to protect homes.
Geoff

Jeff_Mingay

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Economics of Rustic Canyon
« Reply #30 on: June 08, 2004, 01:37:54 PM »
Jeff Brauer,

I appreciate your viewpoints, and your candid willingness to participate in this discussion group. You know, my comments aren't argumentative. Nor are they necessarily correct.

In fact, none of us but Geoff are actually privy to the actual details of the drainage situation at Rustic Canyon. Still, the discussion is always fun, and educational.
jeffmingay.com

Mike Benham

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Economics of Rustic Canyon
« Reply #31 on: June 08, 2004, 01:51:14 PM »

As for Riviera, that was an Army Corps project. The club had no choice but to cooperate. It was not a matter of public and private, but a matter of flood control to protect homes.
Geoff


I don't remember hearing but were any of the homes damaged during the flood at Rustic?  

Were any of the homes in the path or could be in the path of future floods (if it happens once, it could happen again ...)?
"... and I liked the guy ..."

Tommy_Naccarato

Re:Economics of Rustic Canyon
« Reply #32 on: June 08, 2004, 02:16:05 PM »
Mike, No homes were damaged as far as I know. The exisiting flood control at the lower end of the property did its job.

Bob, Yes, I'm fully aware of the drainage that was added in 1973, but it wasn't added to relieve problems by or for the golf course. It was strictly added to protect the homes on La Mesa, correct?

Jeff, I dare you to get in the field and build a golf course with less the 17,000 cyi's. I dare you. YOU have to build it and when you do, I'll personally give you my guarantee to come and visit you while your doing it.

Bob_Huntley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Economics of Rustic Canyon
« Reply #33 on: June 08, 2004, 02:37:41 PM »
Tommy,

The flooding did effect the canyon sides of the course abutting La Mesa, but the real damage would have occurred at, of all names, Rustic Canyon, and Uplifters Ranch.

Tommy_Naccarato

Re:Economics of Rustic Canyon
« Reply #34 on: June 08, 2004, 02:41:38 PM »
Bob,
What do you know of the history of Uplifters Ranch?

Brian Phillips

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Economics of Rustic Canyon
« Reply #35 on: June 08, 2004, 02:45:35 PM »
Could someone tell me how the greens are built?  Are they USGA type or is it local cut and fill with indigenous sand?

What height are the tees, just off the ground (like 2ft) and are they buillt with local sand as well?  

What are the average size of the greens?

Thanks.

Brian
Bunkers, if they be good bunkers, and bunkers of strong character, refuse to be disregarded, and insist on asserting themselves; they do not mind being avoided, but they decline to be ignored - John Low Concerning Golf

RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Economics of Rustic Canyon
« Reply #36 on: June 08, 2004, 07:39:01 PM »
Jeff Mingay says it best IMHO here:

Quote
I appreciate your viewpoints, and your candid willingness to participate in this discussion group. You know, my comments aren't argumentative. Nor are they necessarily correct.

In fact, none of us but Geoff are actually privy to the actual details of the drainage situation at Rustic Canyon. Still, the discussion is always fun, and educational.

Maybe I am naive or am taking to many liberties with years of chattering back and forth on this site, and have been lucky enough to meet many of these fellows in this discussion.  But, I think that we are all gentleman enough to give a little needle, or make an honest observation or critique (if we preface it with IMHO or some such disclaimer) and go ahead and state something overtly.  What is the worse thing that can happen....the receiving end defends their position and makes their logical and factual points?  

I think the exchange between Geoff and Jeff have done us all a good service to give insight that there are differing ways to think about things, and then hidden considerations in proceeding with a project such at RC with respect to the local environmental regulation scene, as Geoff additionally brought out with further back and forth.  

That whole ASGCA thing about being too cautious to say anything negative is overblown, IMHO.  We need more frank talk from practitioners in the trenches.  For my own part, if I say something goofy, please do correct me with some facts that I would not otherwise be aware of.  Otherwise I will continue to reinforce my own ignorance.  I really wouldn't spend so much of my time on GCA if I wanted to keep my level of understanding at status quo... and I'm sure most others here feel the same way.
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Tommy_Naccarato

Re:Economics of Rustic Canyon
« Reply #37 on: June 08, 2004, 10:59:59 PM »
Well said Dick.

Brian,
Rustic Canyons greens were all shaped and cored out or in some cases, just cored out--shaped, then drainage put in with pea gravel sand an amended soil mix added and viola! Done! (I'm sure Geoff will comment further on the finer aspects of what I may have missed)  They are not USGA spec. THANKFULLY!

The tees were built up where they needed be, not for drainage, but more for where the appropriate height as needed to make it the better shot. In many cases they are just cored out and then sand and amended soil added and once again--done.

Personally, I think the tees are in perfect condition as are the greens. Jeff Hick's biggest problem seems to be that he can't keep water on the course because it drains so fast thanks to the sand base. Still, the fairways are great, running fast & firm.

Thomas_Brown

Re:Economics of Rustic Canyon
« Reply #38 on: June 09, 2004, 12:19:11 AM »
OT but, as someone who lives up Mandeville Canyon, the water really races down that canyon.  Saying that a govt. municipality had to do this work is an understatement.  It's much too big an undertaking for any club to foot.  Furthermore, there are industrial oil pipes going thru the Sullivan/Mandeville canyon which had burst in the nearby school(Paul Revere) adjacent to Riviera in that same era.  In a way, the area is fortunate that Riviera is there.

Tommy - How do you know about Uplifter's ranch?
My kids play at RC all the time - The gym area has all sorts of historic memorabilia inside which you'd love.

Tommy_Naccarato

Re:Economics of Rustic Canyon
« Reply #39 on: June 09, 2004, 12:52:40 AM »
Thomas,
I've come across Uplifters Ranch several times during research of Ol' Los Angeles.

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Economics of Rustic Canyon
« Reply #40 on: June 09, 2004, 11:08:19 AM »
Jeff,

I didn't take any of your comments as argumentative.

Geoff,

Jay Moorish once described his style of design as "necessitist" rather than minimalist.  I hope that term meets with more favor......but it does describe another possible design approach - anywhere.  I am certainly guility of using RC (in an RC thread) to illustrate different approaches, without a full knowledge of all the permitting difficulties you may have faced.  I will apologize if my general comments using RC as a possible example offend Gil, as I would never question his work.  

However, I specifically did not suggest an earthmoving extravaganza, nor a flood control channel that disturbed any wildlife corridor as you suggest.  What I had in mind wouldn't disturb the natural areas much more than disturbing the soil for normal grassing areas.

I have gotten many projects permitted with my approach in difficult situations.  So, neither my approach, nor my membership in ASGCA has hindered any projects, as YOU wildly - and incorrectly - imply, just as your columns and website takes broad swipes at most everyone in the golf world, playing fast and loose with facts, presenting your opinions as unassailable fact, portraying good individuals with the sneering disdain normally reserved for axe murderers, and generally treating ASGCA, USGA and GCBAA like a baby treats a diaper, simply to promote yourself and your agenda...... so, I expect that from you...... Odd that you tend to go ballistic at any hint of criticsim in your direction!

Now, I know that its a character flaw of mine, but damn, that felt good!  Must follow Abe Lincolns advice and hit the delete button......Must resist hitting send button......Must resist hitting send button......Must resist hitting send button.......Oh, dang!



Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Tommy_Naccarato

Re:Economics of Rustic Canyon
« Reply #41 on: June 09, 2004, 01:01:44 PM »
Quote
However, I specifically did not suggest an earthmoving extravaganza, nor a flood control channel that disturbed any wildlife corridor as you suggest.  What I had in mind wouldn't disturb the natural areas much more than disturbing the soil for normal grassing areas.

I have gotten many projects permitted with my approach in difficult situations.  So, neither my approach, nor my membership in ASGCA has hindered any projects, as YOU wildly - and incorrectly - imply, just as your columns and website takes broad swipes at most everyone in the golf world, playing fast and loose with facts, presenting your opinions as unassailable fact, portraying good individuals with the sneering disdain normally reserved for axe murderers, and generally treating ASGCA, USGA and GCBAA like a baby treats a diaper, simply to promote yourself and your agenda...... so, I expect that from you...... Odd that you tend to go ballistic at any hint of criticsim in your direction!

Now, I know that its a character flaw of mine, but damn, that felt good!  Must follow Abe Lincolns advice and hit the delete button......Must resist hitting send button......Must resist hitting send button......Must resist hitting send button.......Oh, dang!


Jeff,

I find it odd that you say you weren't being critical of Gil's work, yet you still are hinting of criticisms of it without really ever even seeing it, and then you target Geoff in an effort distract your criticisms of Gil's work! Why you act like Geoff has never appreciated anyone else's work that's involved with the ASGCA, and I can tell you how wrong that assumption is!

Geoff has never had to apologize for being outspoken, and I'm glad he hasn't because he's pretty much directly on the mark here IMHO.

Geoff_Shackelford

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Economics of Rustic Canyon
« Reply #42 on: June 09, 2004, 01:23:46 PM »
Jeff,

I understand your frustration.

We had very few permitting difficulties, which was the point of my rebuttal.

The "modern mainstream approach" often runs into problems with a site like Rustic Canyon. The natural flood control channel that we gladly incorporated is also the wildlife corridor. Yet neither was touchable with good reason. Without knowing a single thing about the site or project, you suggested that a modern mainstream architect would have addressed the flood control, the implication being that Gil didn't and thus, the flood occurred and that's why the modern mainstream architect is better. And I say, the modern mainstream architect approach would be trying to get the project approved.

Naturally, I'm also glad you take comfort in making over-the-top comments regarding my work. It's safe to do so because I'm not in the ASGCA and never will be.

My criticism is always driven by a concern for the sport and the well-being of those who are trying to give back to it. Believe me, it's not self-serving in this day and age when the truth is often upsetting, even to those who agree with it.

A more productive use of your time might be a Golfdom guest column documenting the irresponsible attacks I've made, citing references to particular organizations and the good individuals I've maligned (the USGA, Tom Fazio and Donald Trump parts will be easy to document, and I look forward to hearing about their contributions to making golf a better game!).
Geoff


Brian Phillips

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Economics of Rustic Canyon
« Reply #43 on: June 09, 2004, 01:52:37 PM »
Tommy and Geoff,

I have just reread through the posts made here and I cannot really see how Jeff is implying anything about Gill and the way he works.

All Jeff did is point out how he would have approached the job. He admitted that he made a few assumptions (which is allowed as long as he states it) without knowing the whole truth.

Geoff, I am a great admirer of your work but I find the way you have handled some of the things said about Rustic Canyon a bit weird.  You seem to get your 'knickers in a twist' as soon as someone has an opinon about the place.  I am saying this a neutral guy on the other side of the pond reading your stuff on your site and here.  You know I like your books etc I have stated it before.

As someone who looks up to Jeff, I get a little downhearted when you say you are laughing at him when he says he would do certain things in a different way or manage to recreate the same fairway contours just from lifting certain areas by 2-3 feet.  He may be wrong but you don't have to be condescending to him just because he has an opinion that you don't agree with.  Maybe, just maybe he could recreate much of the contouring that you have created on the site, we will never know but to say you are laughing at him is sad.

Jeff has taught many of us on this site many things, instead of attacking why not teach us more about Rustic Canyon or does everyone have to buy your book (which I have)?

Which greens are not natural?  Which ones were just cored out.  How many bunkers does the course have?  What is the sand mix in the greens etc..

We all want to learn on here not just moan about other architects.  Tell us how you do your work, I liked the book so why not share it here?

I know Jeff pretty well and he is a very, very nice and helpful guy and I am pretty confident he did not mean any critism towards Gill.

Just my two pence..

Brian Phillips.
Admirer of Geoff and Jeff... ;)

Bunkers, if they be good bunkers, and bunkers of strong character, refuse to be disregarded, and insist on asserting themselves; they do not mind being avoided, but they decline to be ignored - John Low Concerning Golf

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Economics of Rustic Canyon
« Reply #44 on: June 09, 2004, 02:07:14 PM »
Well said, Brian.

George
Admirer of Geoff, Jeff & Brian, along with many others. :)
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Economics of Rustic Canyon
« Reply #45 on: June 09, 2004, 02:15:07 PM »
Tommy,

I really wasn't critical of Gil's work. And I was critical solely of some of Geoff's writings, but more on that later.....

In fact, I said it was a well designed course and that was great for the economics of the project.  I simply pointed out that a bit more earthmoving is usually insignifigant to the overall greens fee structure at a public course like Rustic Canyon.  And, if possible due to permitting, etc. there are times when spending more up front on construction (once) can save future costs every stinkin year, which I have found to be more cost effective for my owners.

And then, my computer keyboard apparently got a case of diahrrea.... :-X

Geoff,

Thanks for letting me get that off my chest. ::)  I am a fan of your history books, and know I have a lot to learn from seeing Rustic Canyon.  I do give you credit for believing that you are moving the game forward by taking it back to its roots.  I don't always agree with your writing style and/or conclusions, and know that your articles need a different attitude than your historic works in order to get attention.

It appeared to me yesterday that that "attitude" surfaced, and seriously doubt that everyone in Santa Monica is laughing at me!  It seemed that when I suggested a moderate approach with some additional engineering that you were imagining only an earthmoving extravaganza that rearragned the mountains to the valley location and vice versa. In reality, there is so much variation in style and emphasis among designers, that I don't know if you can categorize "the modern mainstream approach" easily at all, even if that was my label originally, and certainly not as all artificial, all the time.

BTW, I have often considered writing similar comments in a letter to the editor of Golfdom, but figured I may as well lay out my thoughts here, while I was, um, you know, in the mood.   :-[  Since I am under contract to both Golf Course News and Cybergolf to produce material, I doubt they would look kindly on me writing a guest piece for Golfdom, but I can check that out.....

For the record, the piece that bothered me the most, and was foremost in my mind the last few days was your Golfdom piece trashing the Golf Course Builders.  You attributed many false motives to them, based on my experience with the best of the best in the contracting world.  It's one thing to discuss and/or support an architectural style, or even discuss poor course set ups for major tournaments, but quite another to label everyone in a group as lazy, uninterested in anything but profit, prone to change orders, or whatever, as you did in that column.  Just my opinion.

Good luck on the Sand Hills project, by the way.  I won't make any assumptions on what you will do there, but would love to hear what you and Gil plan to do to make the course your own unique brand of design among the several courses that will apparently be built there.

Cheers.

Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Geoff_Shackelford

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Economics of Rustic Canyon
« Reply #46 on: June 09, 2004, 02:18:41 PM »
Brian,

I appreciate your comments and complimentary remarks. However, I just don't see any other way to read Jeff's comments regarding Gil's judgment. Either this was a jab or just irresponsible: "modern mainstream architects who have point out that had another million been spent on things like grading, piping, detaining and otherwise controlling the flash flood waters that periodically race through So Cal canyons, reduces annual clean up costs, residual maintenance costs and lost revenue may very well have been offset the debt cost."  
 
If I had commented on a project of Jeffs, and implied that a recent flood caused by an incredibly rare event might have been prevented by a "modern minimalist approach," I suspect Jeff would not have agreed with such criticism.

And if I hadn't seen the site, knew nothing about what was required to make it work or how to accomodate natural, economic, environmental, golfing and political concerns, he'd be right to say I'm way out of line for making any suggestion that things should have been handled differently, and he might even suggest that I'm attacking him professionally. And I think he'd be right.

I apologize if my laughter offends, but I don't know how else to react when an architect feels that contours created by moving water over a long period of time, thousands of years ago as seen in photos he's viewed, can be replicated in a way that looks authentic. It's just not that simple.

As for specifics regarding the project, I've written a series of articles behind the thinking of the holes on my web site. The most important construction details have been posted on this site several times. The construction process of the 13th hole is detailed at length in Ran's course profile. I'm just not sure what else can be revealed.
Geoff

DMoriarty

Re:Economics of Rustic Canyon
« Reply #47 on: June 12, 2004, 08:44:41 PM »
Wow, what a fascinating discussion, and so full of inside information on how courses are built.  I was especially encapsulated by the "modern mainstream architect's" (MMA's) approach.  

Applying the MMA's approach to a course like Rustic Canyon is futile.  One side is throwing around figures like a 100,000 cy reduction, as if it was a little off the top.  The other noting that 17,000 cy is probably too high a number.   Doesnt seem like you guys are in the same profession.


Further. have the MMA's ever heard of a cost/benefit analysis?  If so how on earth could one justify advising a million dollars in flood control at a course which is built on sand and receives less than 12 inches of rain per year??  

I dont know how much the flood cost RC, but as I recall they were closed for something like ten days, or maybe less.  They had to rebuild one half of one tee; had smooth and seed 200 yds of one fairway;  had to dig out some bunkers, and had to scrape and blow a bunch of sand off the rest of the course.  I just dont see this as costing all that much (especially after insurance.)  

I imagine that RC would have to have quite a few of these floods before they brook even on their million dollar expenditure.   Is it possible that the entire upstream canyon will again burn and that burn will be followed by a five inch rainstorm, but I sure wouldnt bet a million dollars that it will happen anytime soon.  

It seems the MMA's overspend for fear of the worst, regardless of the economics.  I dont know how much the flood cost RC, but as I recall they were closed for something like ten days, or maybe less.  They had to rebuild one half of one tee; had smooth and seed 200 yds of one fairway;  had to dig out some bunkers, and had to scrape and blow a bunch of sand off the rest of the course.  I just dont see this as costing all that much (especially after insurance.)  

I imagine that RC would have to have quite a few of these floods before they brook even on their million dollar expenditure.  

--  
Oh yeah . . . no doubt, Jeff Braur is criticizing Gil's approach, although indirectly.  But that seems perfectly appropriate in this discussion group.  


Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Economics of Rustic Canyon
« Reply #48 on: June 12, 2004, 09:35:19 PM »
Further. have the MMA's ever heard of a cost/benefit analysis?  If so how on earth could one justify advising a million dollars in flood control at a course which is built on sand and receives less than 12 inches of rain per year??  

--  

David,

If you read my posts, a cost benefit analysis is EXACTLY what I suggested.  While  I through out numbers that are probably incorrect for RC, I do know that in general, at todays interest rates, you pay $85 per thousand dollars of construction and $1000 per $1000 of repair and lost revenue.  Most owners think that the unquantifiable damage to their reputation, after having to cancel a few long scheduled outings is a bigger problem than the actual repair costs.  In this market, once your customers go somewhere else, it can be hard to lure them back.


I usually do a C/B analysis.  I rarely can justify an extra amount for earthmovng for aesthetic reasons, but I often justify earthmoving, sod and drainage costs as long term cost savers, if they prevent erosion and drainage problems.  Thats just my experience in building 45 courses in a variety of climates.

The classic definition of insanity is to do something over and over, expecting a different result.  Having had (and  probably having some more in the future) some flood damage on a few courses, and erosion problems on many others, and working with owners who don't have a lot of budtetary wiggle room, I find those technical items are good insurance against unforseen costs.

Is it overbuilding?  Again, - like what design style may sell in a particular market - this is a value judgement on every course.  

I'm sorry to have used RC as an example, but since it was an RC economics thread, I thought is was appropos to use it to make an educational point on the "business side" of golf course architecture, certainly with no disrespect intended for anyone at RC.  
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

DMoriarty

Re:Economics of Rustic Canyon
« Reply #49 on: June 13, 2004, 11:08:13 PM »
I am not offended by your posts at all, I choose to play my golf at Rustic, but I have no affiliation with the course.  Also I think RC presents a powerful refutation of modern mainstream golf architecture.
 

David,

If you read my posts, a cost benefit analysis is EXACTLY what I suggested.
 

I don't see it.  You extensively discuss the potential benefit, but you avoid any reasonable assessment of the cost.  Instead you present vague and infinitely expansive costs.  Therein lies the problem;  if one looks unrealistically at the potential costs, then one can justify almost any expenditure; even an unnecessary million dollar expenditure at a sand based, low profile course, with a significant natural slope.

For example, you count the unquantifiable damage to [the owners] reputation as a cost.  You also treat cancellation of a few events and a potential loss of business.

Frankly, your "cost" analysis appears to be a hobgoblin that might scare timid owners into spending more than they should, sometimes a million dollars more!

Take the comments of your experienced architects who tell you that this supposed drainage problem could have been solved by spending a million dollars on pipes, moving dirt, raising fairways, whatever.   I would be very surprised if fixing the flood damage cost the course more than $100,000 including lost revenues.   So the Risk (cost) in not spending the money is the potential loss ($100,000) multiplied by the  probability of this happening again in the forseeable future:  1/50, 1/70, 1/25?   These all seem conservative to me, but they ought to prove the point:  It is unreasonable to spend a million dollars trying to make RC flood proof.  It just doesnt cost that much to fix the course, even in extraordinary circumstances.  

As for the course's reputation and the loss of customers,  RC has demonstrated that a good design at a fair price can bounce back from just about anything.

Plus, if you or the unnamed architects made the changes you suggested, RC will very likely worse for the changes.  This might dramatically diminish the benefit-- you know, less golfers, damage to reputation, etc.  

I dont buy that you are doing the owner a favor placing the costs up front.  A million dollars is quite a lot of money to owners with little budgetary wiggle room.  It would be much more efficient if you told them to buy applicable insurance, or to set aside a lump sum at start-up to help with these potential costs.  

I agree with Geoff that raising the seventh fairway as much four feet is a laughable proposition.  The hole would stick out like a sore thumb.  Plus, the strategy and playability of the hole would be changed dramaticly.  Also, you are drastically underestimating the magnitude of the flood at Rustic.  If seven was raised enough to stay above water, then all that water would have been deflected to other parts of the course, most likely doing similar damage.  

More importantly, such changes are entirely antithetical to the style of the course.    

Quote
The classic definition of insanity is to do something over and over, expecting a different result.
 Who said anything about expecting a different result?  If the course floods again, fix it, clean it up, then and move on.  
______________

With all due respect to you and your extensive experience, your methods as described above have absolutely no place at a course like rustic canyon.  You and most modern architects seem to think that messing with nature will often make a course better. In contrast, building a course like Rustic might require the opposite belief--  nature will almost always do a better job creating a compelling golf course, no matter what  engineering you can throw at it.  

A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds.
--Ralph Waldo Emerson

 
« Last Edit: June 13, 2004, 11:13:52 PM by DMoriarty »