spanish bay v spyglass

[Bob_Huntley]

Peter McKnight,

How can you watch pay and watch PPV knowing that Man U. were third, behind Arsenal, and wait for it..... Chelsea?

Peter, play more golf and stop torturing yourself, Man U. are but a shadow of their former self. Beating Millwall in the Cup was like the school bully thumping a third former.



Bob

[Mike Hendren]

Count me in among the Spyglass fans.  Apparently the new drainage has improved turf conditions considerably.  I found that to indeed be the case.  This is a rock solid meat-and-potatoes golf course.   A few too many short drop-shot one shotters, the last of which is a little too cute and pretty, but a solid mix of holes.  It plays a little longer than the yardage indicates, but I did not find it to be the brute that many suggest it is.  

As I've said before, the fourth is an ingenious golf hole - one of a kind and worth the price of admission.  

Other things equal,  I'd replay Spy before Pasa, notwithstanding my slight bias toward the classical.  Any student of golf course architecture should play Spy at least once as it occupies a rather transitional point on the architectural time line.  

Mike

[THuckaby2]

It plays a little longer than the yardage indicates, but I did not find it to be the brute that many suggest it is.

Play it from the back tees, or under tournament conditions, then report back.

It's a brute all right.  And these numbers don't lie:

Men
Blue     72        75.2     146      6867
Gold     72        73.0     144      6483
White   72        71.4     137      6113

This quibble aside, your wisdom re all the rest remains impeccable.

 

Tom "84 from the golds in a recent tournament there and coming off feeling I played as well as I possibly could" Huckaby

[A_Clay_Man]

Huck- Is there more evidence of the cancre taking more trees?

How are the experimental ones doing, behind and the the left of the 8th green, nearer the road and driving range?

[THuckaby2]

Adam:

Unfortunately I was in competitive mode, thus not taking too much note of things beyond getting my ball in the hole!

But I didn't notice any MORE tree death than the previous time I was there (last fall) anyway... And I do recall a little grove of new trees long and left of 8 (don't ask me why I am familiar with this area   ) and those did look to be very healthy.

TH

[johnk]

Another number that doesn't lie -
Spyglass was the fourth most difficult course on the PGA Tour in 2003 with a scoring average of 74.592

It's likely that Sawgrass, R. St. George's and US Open were the only ones with higher scoring averages...

Et tu, Spyglass?

[A_Clay_Man]

Does anyone remember if that was with lift clean and cheat? In 03'?

I wonder if the eighth is still one of the toughest on tour? I recall in years past it had been ranked 6th toughest hole, on tour. The loops loved that stuff. Especially when I would tell them that on the 9th tee, after par or better.

[THuckaby2]

Adam:

I'm pretty sure it was LC&P (C!) in both 2003 and 2004. They haven't played it down in the AT&T in a long time.  But I could be wrong.

And this talk of #8 Spyglass reminds me of something that struck me playing Poppy Hills a few weeks ago.  Am I crazy, or are #8 at Spy and #4 at Poppy Hills VERY similar golf holes?  Both just sort of lie there with nothing jumping out at you (though you do have a bit of a carry over a barranca on #4PH), but both are VERY tough golf holes, both giving the pros fits every year.  And as far as I can tell, the reason why they play so tough is that each has a fairway canting away from the direction you need to go, each has thick trees on both sides (though that won't effect the pros much), each requires a long straight tee shot or the approach will be blind, and each has a devilish greens with lots of internal contour and at least two VERY tough pin positions.

Playing these back to back, it really hit me... These are both shortish (less than 400) par 4's that give the pros fits, and for similar reasons.

Of course I also could just be rationalizing my own lack of success on these also!  

[A_Clay_Man]

Tom- You raise good questions. The "fits" I've witnessed on these holes, seem to be of a different nature. But certainly the slope of the fairway at Spy, makes finding long left, easy. (shh don't tell anyone, but what u r suppose to do, is aim for the bunker, and pull it onto the green, shhh)

The mistakes I witness the pros make at PH, are all on, or near the green.

While the right front bunkers are diabolical on both holes, the one at Spy is the only "major" feature  on the hole. Subtlety and difficulty at it's best. And boy, does it enter the golfers mind. So much so, that like I said, you're suppose to aim for it. emmus

[THuckaby2]

Great stuff, Adam.

Re #8 Spy, what is it that makes one pull the approach there?  You're damn near always sitting with a downhill lie, that should be sliced.  Is it over-correction, trying to stay away from that very scary bunker?

I swear I go left every time I play that hole, each time over-correcting from the expected miss right.

So hmmm... aiming at it allowing for the pull... jeez that is tough to do mentally from a slice lie, but darn it, nothing else has ever worked there, so I shall give it a try!

TH

[A_Clay_Man]

Report back, Tom. And for golly gosh sakes, please notice the uphill lie (thats why you pull it) and then notice the difference in the uphill lie, from the right side of the fairway versus the left.

[THuckaby2]

Adam:

I don't recall ever having an uphill lie for my second... most of the time the ball is below my feet - you know, a definite slice lie.  I guess the pros get it further up the hill where they do have an a lie that is uphill but not with the ball below the feet... I sure don't get there.

And yes, I do notice the difference between left and right sides.  It is flatter on the right - but it's a worse angle into the green from there (straight over bunker).  This is part of the greatness of the golf hole without a doubt!  You have to pick your poison... and it's tough to execute getting such poison, whichever you pick.  But either side is a tough shot.

I just continue to wonder why that lie with the ball below my feet still goes left.  Oh, if it's above my feet I get it - that's a natural pul.  But this is contrary to the normal shot, and I really think it's mental overcorrection due to the terrors on the right of the green.

TH

[johnk]

Tom, you were talking about # 3 PH, correct?  #4 is a DDL par 5. IOUAOP*, BTW

The fact that they play a lot of of LC&P at the AT&T makes the scoring averages that much more impressive.

Also, I think the main reason the pros dislike PH and can't score there is that they can't hit many drivers.  A lot of times they end up hitting their approaches from the same place you and I would.  Tiger has made 1 par on #8 at PH ever.  Basically, the pros lay up on #1, #4, #5, #8, #12, #13, #14.  So it gets a bit annoying to them, I think.

(* "I'm over using abbreviations on purpose"

[A_Clay_Man]

Tom, You have both, it is just that the uphill is greater than the side hill. You can't feel it, many times, and that is a big part of the genius. Also, that slice lie you talk about (below your feet) my latest stats show close to 75 % pull from that slice lie. Of course it is totally dependant on where you have the ball placed in your stance. The further back in your stance, the bigger the likelyhood of the slice. But in the middle or slightly forward, should produce a pull with a nice normal swing, as I said 75% of the time. Check it out and get back to me.

It is similar to the pull-me-push-you shot, I love on the second there.

[THuckaby2]

JK:  #3 PH - yes.  Hey, what's a missed number between friends.  And I think you have it right on re the pros' displeasure at Poppy.  That's similar to how I feel about it from the white tees... If I am playing for score (ie actually trying hard) that's a lot of non-drivers.  From the blue it's beat it and hope... In fact that's another weakness of Poppy - the whites are 6300 and the blues are 6900 (app.).  They need a 6600 yard tee to make ME happy.  Of course I have created such, playing a white/blue, up/back mix... And it is all about ME...    I do really like the course, btw.  I just also like to bitch.

Adam:  WOW!  Dammit that's why I need a caddie if I am ever to play this game actually well.  You are so right about these shots on #8, and I have had it all wrong... I just see ball below my feet, don't even think about the other uphill nature, and then expect a slice... and darn it I believe your stats that say the slice doesn't happen anyway, and it's gonna be especially wrong on this shot.

OK, next time I get this correct!  The only problem is, I'm not sure when that next time will be - I'm not exactly a Spyglass regular, unfortunately - and even when it comes, well... I still have to get a drive between the trees!

TH

[Mike Benham]

Tom, you were talking about # 3 PH, correct?  #4 is a DDL par 5. IOUAOP*, BTW

Tom had me confused too!  He must be talking about #3 ...

I think #3 at PH is a much tougher (mentally) driving hole because to the implied dogleg ... in reality it doesn't dogleg as much as you think ..

[THuckaby2]

Mike, I'm confused - and confusing - all the time.

And good call re the drive difficulty on this bitch golf hole, whatever number it is.  

Remember when there was a bunker on the left, though?  Oh man, that REALLY gave the pros fits.

BTW, in the rating there, we debated long and hard as to whether the ball would come down off that hill on the left, bouncing through the normal rough.  I pleaded with the others that it would... that a normal shot for the scratch player would be to hit it off of there, allowing for the bounce down.  The sager, more experienced raters with me shouted me down... I gave up, ceding to their wisdom... But then strove to prove them wrong while playing...

So I aimed left, hit a long straight drive, and well....

The damn ball did stay up in the rough.

There is something to be said for wisdom and experience after all.  But dammit they were smug!

 

But this also makes the hole play as more of a dogleg than it should.  Yes, you can go relatively straight.. but it's a tough shot from the rough - another sidehill lie - and the trees block a lot of shots also.  Of course again, like Spyglass 8, the angle is a little better from the left.. But the lie is worse.

This is another great golf hole.

[A_Clay_Man]

It was odd comparing the four with a five, but Tom's point was about how the big boys mess it up. I did spend the better part of a thursday at the crosby sitting behind the 4th green. And I did watch these guys, all play it, rather pooly.

The 3rd at Poppy never made me think of 8 at Spy. Other than up hill, the similarites are few. Perhaps on laying-up the approach of a prudent golfer without too much ability?

[THuckaby2]

Adam:

I was trying to compare NUMBER THREE at Poppy to NUMBER EIGHT at Spyglass, as to me the similarities are many.  Primarily, you have the same sort of drive - trying to keep it as left as possible, for the shortest route to the green and the best angle - and then each is canted away from that, that is, breaking down to the right.  Each are slight dog leg lefts that can be played straighter, but at great risk and giving a worse lie though a better angle in.  They really do seem quite similar to me, and playing them on consecutive days and then Poppy again a few weeks later - as I did recently - really made this hit home.

But of course, there are differences also.  #8 Spy is far more uphill, and is a bit tighter in the drive.  The penalties for a miss right, or a flub, are far greater on #3 Poppy.  The greens aren't similar at all, other than having a lot of contour.  #8 Spy has a much tougher bunker, short right.

I just do get a similar feel playing each of these.. the tests are similar... and of course that only tends to really come out in competitive, tournament play also.  I don't get to do so very often, thus it struck me hard last month.

#4 Poppy, the double dog leg par five, has its own merits for sure, and hell yes it gives the pros fits also.

But I think #3 Poppy has a higher scoring average relative toi par... like #8 Spy, it always seems to be at the top of the lists.

TH

[A_Clay_Man]

Tom, I just said I never felt it. If you feel it, go with it. I see them as both uphill par 4's.

I do however feel the drive at PH is more of a puckerer. With the Ob alone, it's a different mindset. The gorge carry, may exemplify the psychological affects of the ultimate in top-shot bunkers.
Both these are not a factor at Spy. A real testament to Spy's 8th is that it ranks highly with no O.B.(I know there is near the road) and is shorter too. (maybe not from the tips?)
Also, I always viewed the 8th as a straight hole. With the trees overhanging the left never made it feel like a dogleg. Likely because the play is "right center will get you left center". Any ball pulled and still right of the path is playable over the trees, short of the green. Any ball, left of the path ist tot! At Poopy, left aint the death sentence, and right is. Just some of the differences, i see.

[THuckaby2]

Adam:

Those are all clearly differences. I just see more similarities, that's all!

The feel to me is really similar on the approach shots... and while #3PH is a bit more of a butt-puckerer on the drive, what one is trying to accomplish is very similar - you want to stay as left as you can, but it's tough to do given the right cant of the fairway.  Then the approaches are very similar also... and the distances are similar... They also both have trees overhanging on the left...

Really to me the only difference is the gorge carry on the tee shot on PH#3 - which is truly a non-issue for the good player, or at least should be - and the OB right, which definitely is in play.  Yep, a miss right on #8 Spy means a punch through the trees, as opposed to a likely re-load and three from the tee at PH #3.  But the miss LEFT is more likely than the miss right in each case, mainly because you're trying to go left to begin with, and you know right is bad (really bad at PH)... and the miss left is damn near identical at the two courses - it's a punch out of the trees.  If anything the miss left at PH is a bit more forgiving - you can play up #6 - the miss left at Spy means a punch sideways more likely.  But it's basically trees and more trees, not a place one wants to be....

Oh well.  I find this all fascinating, even though I'm sure I've bored the rest of the group to tears!

BTW, I mean no disrespect or denigration in calling these two holes similar.  They're both freakin' great in my book.  The fact that they are similar is a compliment.

TH

[A_Clay_Man]

Peter- If you have the 10 oclock time on Saturday, that is the first revenue time, after the members times. It can either be a blessing or a death sentence. Usally a blessing. But there are still a few elder members who like to go behind the other memebers and if they have to keep carts on the path it is a long, slow, walk, to watch, for 14 holes.

Do yourself a favor, and don't waste too many on the range, because you won't have three level lies all day. Go to the putting green well before your time so you can check-out how crowded it really is or isn't.

And by all means, when you get done, go over to Pacific Grove, and get on the list as a single. Sit, have lunch and go enloy some of the best $38 bucks you'll ever spend.