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John_Conley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Five par 3's
« Reply #25 on: June 02, 2004, 10:40:59 AM »
One of my favorites, Golden Valley CC.

Raphael_Larson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Five par 3's
« Reply #26 on: June 02, 2004, 11:12:15 AM »
The Homestead -- Cascades Course.  

Let's see how the college boys handle all five of them this week at the NCAA championship.

Bill Gayne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Five par 3's
« Reply #27 on: June 02, 2004, 11:16:36 AM »
Ballybunion old (par 71), Ballybunion Cashen (par 72), Doonbeg (par 72),  and Portrush Valley (par 70).

I personally favor the par 72 with the five par threes and five par fives combination.

Rob_Waldron

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Five par 3's
« Reply #28 on: June 02, 2004, 11:31:12 AM »
Don't forget my Philly favorite, Manufacturers G&CC has five par 3 holes.
#4
#6
#8
#11
#13

When #18 is played as a par 5 the course also has five  par 5 holes.
#7
#9
#12
#15
#18

ChasLawler

Re:Five par 3's
« Reply #29 on: June 02, 2004, 11:43:20 AM »
....  My intent here is not to discuss the merits of this redesign but to develop a list of courses with five par three holes and put to rest the "executive course" rational...

Thanks for any help you can provide

I'm surprised no one else has jumped in on this, and I'm guilty as well.

Why are we giving Mike a list of courses to use as ammunition to support the redesign of a 1927 Donald Ross course?




Jason Mandel

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Five par 3's
« Reply #30 on: June 02, 2004, 11:50:53 AM »
Applebrook has 5 par 3's.
You learn more about a man on a golf course than anywhere else

contact info: jasonymandel@gmail.com

SPDB

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Five par 3's
« Reply #31 on: June 02, 2004, 11:51:24 AM »
Cabell - Good question, although that assumes that the original course is still intact, and that Mike's efforts are not restorative in nature. It is quite possible that the course underwent a previous renovation altering its original 5 par 3 setup. I tend not to doubt Prichard in all matters Ross.

ChasLawler

Re:Five par 3's
« Reply #32 on: June 02, 2004, 12:00:16 PM »
Sean - I agree that Prichard's name does bring a level of credibility to the project. I just found it lightly concerning that Mike did not offer any significant details about the redesign, and that many on here, including myself, seem quick to come to his aid when we don't really know what he's trying to do.

Bill Gayne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Five par 3's
« Reply #33 on: June 02, 2004, 12:37:05 PM »
I don't understand why anyone would think of a par 70 as an executive course. I guess someone may argue that it's not a "championship" course but who cares unless they plan on hosting a championship. I believe that some of the recent US Opens were played to par 70.

If this is a really big issue an option would be to take the longest par 4 and print 4/5 on the card. If the hole is played from the back tee than it's a par five. If its played from the middle or forward tees than it's a par 4. I assume that the course rating and handicapping system could be reflective of such an arrangement.

THuckaby2

Re:Five par 3's
« Reply #34 on: June 02, 2004, 12:53:22 PM »
If this is a really big issue an option would be to take the longest par 4 and print 4/5 on the card. If the hole is played from the back tee than it's a par five. If its played from the middle or forward tees than it's a par 4. I assume that the course rating and handicapping system could be reflective of such an arrangement.

The par number is meaningless in course rating and handicapping and has zero effect...  What will come into play is the added or subtracted yardage, if the tees are more than 25 yards apart - they will then be rated separately.  The clubs might also allot handicap strokes differently based on the two different tees.  But you can call a 500 yard hole a par 3 if you want and it has no effect on course rating.

TH

John_Cullum

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Five par 3's
« Reply #35 on: June 02, 2004, 02:29:49 PM »
University of Florida by Ross has 5 3's. I note a lot of Ross on this list.
"We finally beat Medicare. "

Michael Dugger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Five par 3's
« Reply #36 on: June 02, 2004, 02:46:16 PM »
The membership's notion of a par 70 being an executive course is absurd.

Try and convey to them that it matters not.  Try and explain the notion of shot values.  In laymen's terms.......five 225 yard+ par threes are no walk in the park.  

Along those same lines, neither is a 100 yarder to a small green.  I.E. 10th at PV, 7th at Pebble.

Furthermore, how about we get the esteemed TREEHOUSE to now begin listing the wonderful courses that are par 70 or less

Swinley Forest comes to mind.

Think about it.  Par fives are generally the easiest holes on a golf course.  Not as a rule, but in general, they afford the best opportunity for par or better.

Thus, it would stand to reason that fewer of these three shot holes would increase the golf course's chances of defending par.

What does it matter if the poor player can putt all the way from tee to green, provided that he has to zigzag so frequently that he takes six or seven putts to reach it?     --Alistair Mackenzie--

Bill Gayne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Five par 3's
« Reply #37 on: June 02, 2004, 06:27:10 PM »
Tom,

Thanks for the clarification on the establishment of the course rating. I always thought that par would somehow come into the process. I went to the USGA website and learned a little bit more about the process and as you said par is irrelevant.

Jeff Goldman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Five par 3's
« Reply #38 on: June 02, 2004, 07:12:07 PM »
Bill and Huck,

For years 18 on the North Course was played as a par 4/5 (although for the Western Opens 30 years ago it was played as a 5, from 520 yards); a couple of years ago it was a par 4 from all tees.  Now they have gone back and it is a long (450-480) par 4 from the blue and black tees, and a par 5 from the others.  A rare case where the forward tees are behind the back tees. :D

Jeff Goldman
That was one hellacious beaver.

JNC Lyon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Five par 3's
« Reply #39 on: June 02, 2004, 07:14:59 PM »
CC of Rochester (Ross), NY
Irondequoit (Ross), NY
Windermere (Love III), GA
Silver Lake (Craig), NY

"That's why Oscar can't see that!" - Philip E. "Timmy" Thomas

Mike_Trenham

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Five par 3's
« Reply #40 on: June 02, 2004, 08:19:41 PM »
I'm surprised no one else has jumped in on this, and I'm guilty as well.

Why are we giving Mike a list of courses to use as ammunition to support the redesign of a 1927 Donald Ross course?

Good point, The membership is debating this issue.  Here are the facts.

1927 design by Ross, there is evidence he visited the site but not likely one of his more personal efforts.  More likely executed by JB McGovern the manager of his Philadelphia office.

A few years later Tillinghast during his PGA of America tenure redesigned the 9th hole for certain and most likely also redesigned 13 & 14.  Number 9 was a downhill par 4, drive and pitch type hole.  It would be reachable today if still in existance.  This hole was changed due to proximity to the clubhouse.  Today it is an excellent 200+ downhill par 3.   #13 and #14 were reversed from a 3/4 combination to a 4/3 combination.  Folklore has it that this change was made as there were no doglegs on the back nine and the only set of orginal plans in tact show it in today's configuration so there is evidence Ross thought this worthwhile.  The really irronic thing is that many holes on the back nine play as doglegs today with the growth of trees; now 13 is viewed by many of us as too severe as the risk reward of trying to turn the corner has been destroyed by overgrowth of trees not on our property.  Tilly may have also converted 18 from a 220 yard par 3 into a 340 yard par four with the simple addition of a tee, but again the orginal plans show the hole as a par 4 so there is much confusion as to why it was ever a par 3.

(editiorial note Ron Prichard would correct me in that par was never a thought for Ross however the length of the hole was changed greatly)

Over the next 60 years the typical in house work of new tees, too many trees and bunker addition and removal.

In 1995 we contracted with Brian Silva for a restoration, not exactly sure how the project went so wrong but the finished product was pretty uninspired.  Silva may have lost interest due to how the membership micromanaged the project.  Or we simply may have not had the right contractor.  Maybe we went with the low bidder.  The new tees were a sucess but the bunker work is too uniform and angular.

Over the past two years the club has been working with Ron Prichard on a master plan for restoration.  That plan was approved in spirt by the membership last summer although the funding was not.  Plan includes returning to the orginal 13/14 routing.

We have the worst practice area in golf, 150 yards max, where you hit from mats over the end of our 18th fairway.  My shanks land on either the 18th green or our 10th tee.  We are a golf club (no pool, no tennis) and not having a modern full length practice area is a weakness to attacting avid golfer members.  This winter a two members had the revelation that we could fit in a full length range by changing two holes from 4/4 to 3/4.   Only one green would be lost.   We are in the very early stages of this process but Prichard has provided a plan for this concept.
Proud member of a Doak 3.

mitch jean

Re:Five par 3's
« Reply #41 on: June 02, 2004, 09:48:45 PM »
Bald Peak Colony Club-Melvin Village, NH-Ross

A_Clay_Man

Re:Five par 3's
« Reply #42 on: June 03, 2004, 10:23:15 AM »
Mike- The plot thickens.

The thread started with you asking for a list of courses that had 5 one shotters. Cabell speculated about the desire to help alter a Ross design.

Now the rubber meets the road, and we find-out that the club wants to attract avid golfers. And a better Practice facility is perceived as a need, to accomplish that end. Do I have it right so far?

ChasLawler

Re:Five par 3's
« Reply #43 on: June 03, 2004, 12:11:15 PM »
Mike - my apologies if I sort of killed the momentum of your thread.

It sounds to me as if your club is taking the right steps to reach a solution. It's a shame that current members seem more concerned with the total par of the course than with its architectural integrity, but that's a mindset that's hard to alter.

Despite what I think Adam is alluding to, I'd rather see an altered Ross than no Ross at all. Clubs need members to pay the bills.



herrstein

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Five par 3's
« Reply #44 on: June 03, 2004, 09:15:31 PM »
Macdonald/Raynor's St. Louis CC has a biarritz, short, eden, redan, and a semi-edenish "crater" hole.

David Wigler

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Five par 3's
« Reply #45 on: June 04, 2004, 08:52:19 AM »
My home club - Plum Hollow.  Host of the '43 Ryder Cup, '47 PGA and '57 Western Open.  Hogan called our 5 par threes "The best collection of Par 3's anywhere in the United States" after the PGA.
And I took full blame then, and retain such now.  My utter ignorance in not trumpeting a course I have never seen remains inexcusable.
Tom Huckaby 2/24/04

Tim Taylor

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Five par 3's
« Reply #46 on: June 04, 2004, 09:09:14 AM »
Oyster Bay at Myrtle Beach. Actually, I believe it's just across the line in North Carolina.

Five one shotters, par 70. Seen a gator everytime I've been there.

TT

JohnV

Re:Five par 3's
« Reply #47 on: June 04, 2004, 10:16:08 AM »
The par number is meaningless in course rating and handicapping and has zero effect...TH

Actually par 3s do make a difference vs par 4s.  A par 3 has no fairway rating and the obstacle weightings on form 2 are different.  But, it doesn't matter what the course calls it, the par for rating is based on ratings so even if you call a 230 yard hole a par 4 we'll still rate it as a par 3.

As for courses with 5 par 3s, my home course, Hannastown has 5.  They are:

#2 - 131
#7 - 240
#11 - 220
#13 - 187
#15 - 195

Along with 3 par 5s for a par of 70.  Last year it was one of three courses to use US Amateur qualifiers in the area and had the highest 36 hole qualifying scores of the three even though the others were both par 72.

My old home courses at Pumpkin Ridge both have 5 par 3s.  Witch Hollow also has 5 par 5s for par 72 while Ghost Creek has 4 for a par of 71.  Both courses have held USGA Championships (Amateur, 2 Women's Opens, Girls and Boys Juniors).

gookin

Re:Five par 3's
« Reply #48 on: June 06, 2004, 10:50:18 PM »
A few more in Pittsburgh.

Longue Vue Club - 3,5,10,12 &16
Pittsburgh Field Club - 4,6, 14,16 &18

Patrick_Sisk,_CGCS

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Five par 3's
« Reply #49 on: June 07, 2004, 01:06:39 PM »
Country Club of Fairfield:
4
9
11
14
17

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