[DMoriarty]

We are all familiar with the story of how MacDonald chose his copies at NGLA based (at least in part) on a poll of the great players and minds of golf.   I thought it might be interesting to do the same thing for modern designs, say post 1960.  

Which golf holes, built post 1960, are worthy of copy?  

[Jeff Goldman]

I'll try one.  Pete Dye has used a form of par-5 with a second shot choice of a heroic carry to the green with a fearsome hazard on the left and catching a poorly executed attempt, with the option of a safer play to the right.  The best example of this is 16 at the River Course at Blackwolf Run, which in addition has the tree 100 yards in front of the green, which is high above the Sheboygan river to the left.  There are similar holes at PGA West (with the San Andreas bunker subbing for the river), and Sawgrass, and there may be others.  Is this too general for a template hole?

Jeff Goldman

[ed_getka]

#7 Sand Hills short par 4
#14 Sand Hills par 5
#6 Pacific Dunes short par 4
#4 Barona Creek par 4
#2 Kingsley Club par 3
#6 Kingsley Club par 4
#15 KC long par 4
#2 Pac Dunes par 4
#7 Pac Dunes par 4

[TEPaul]

David:

If an architect was to do that today perhaps he should do what Macdonald (and Whigam) did at NGLA. They may have had a number of drawings available to them from Europe but they still had to find the acceptable spots on NGLA to do them. They didn't or couldn't do all of what he might have wanted at NGLA. He did say he would've liked to have done a Biarritz there but that he just couldn't find an acceptable spot or landform for it. Is perhaps that why NGLA only has three par 3s and is a par 73 still today?

Frankly, as I've said before for really good players I wouldn't mind seeing the club leave the course just as it is and print up another card taking that course to a par 70.

Obviously that would mean it would be probably have the lowest amount of par 3s and par 5s of any golf course but it could be said it may be the course with the most good and varied par 4s anywhere.

There certainly are a good number of modern era holes I'd love to copy (conceptually or otherwise) if the acceptable place and landform could be found.

[DMoriarty]

Jeff,

I dont think it is too general.  In fact I was going to list 16 at PGA West, but had to run out the door without giving any examples.  

Query whether 17 at Sawgrass/PGA should also make the list.  Personally I am not a fan of island greens, but I know many are. Plus these holes were/are certainly a sign of their times.  

Tom, As for fitting the holes to the land, I dont mean to follow the NGLA model so specifically.  First, I definitely consider the Biarritz one of MacDonald's concept holes whether it was built or not at NGLA.  Second, this is a hypothetical so I am not sure we need to worry about fitting with any particular land.   But if it helps you form an answer, imagine a Shadow Creek/Lido situation where you can spend a bunch of money to shape the land the way you want it.  

And come on Tom, quit holding out on us.  That is three times now you've mentioned this bevy of modern holes worthy of copies without naming names or describing holes.

Ed.

Welcome back.  I almost excluded the neo-classic courses in my original post, but decided to let the posters decide what qualifies as a modern course.  (In other words, should a neo-classic course which emulates courses of the twenties truly be considered modern?)

But we will see what people think.  Meanwhile, do you have any that arent by the supposed "favored architects?"  And if you are focusing on such, I think you inadvertantly forgot RC 6 and 12, at least.  

[A_Clay_Man]

With all the sophisticated earth movin' and general learn'in that's been going-on since the template era, Why oh why would anyone want to copy a hole? Sure the concept, but come-on, what modern day professional wants to be known as a plagerist?

[ed_getka]

David,
  I didn't forget RC. I was just thinking some more. #12 is definitely NOT on the list. The green could be, but I still feel there is not enough to think about off the tee. My RC picks would be #2, #6, and #11 (#11 would be my top pick).
  I will think of some non-neo-classical holes to add. If I can!

[DMoriarty]

Surely there must be more holes than this which deserve to be included . . . . Anyone?  

[Scott_Burroughs]

In deference to the 'saving Inniscrone' thread, holes #1-3, 6,7,9,11-15 at Inniscrone.

Keeping the theme:

#1-2, 5-7, 9,10,12-18 at French Creek.

Just remove the long walks between holes at both courses.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

David,

#10 at Friar's Head--The world needs more blind or at least partialy blind one-shotters where sand is the most extreme hazard or blinding dune that will scare the beejeebees out of you when standing on the tee.

#2 at Talking Stick-North.--Its strategy is one that should be explored more often. OB the one entire side and open fairway to the other, only the closer you play to the hazard, the better the line to the hole--thanks to some ingenious shaping that can screw with extreme safe side, protecting a green with a solitary bunker.

#9 at Pacific Dunes--A brilliant use of land by use of deception from the tee. Simply brilliant, no matter what green your hitting too. When I first saw it, I thought it maybe the greatest Redan par 3, I had seen to date, only its a redan-like tee shot for a par 4!  Its the type of deception you would see at NGLA or St. Andrews.

#12 at the Old Course of St. Andrews-"Hole O' The Cross"--One of the most confusing if not down-right intimidating holes I have ever played.

#15 at Inniscrone--Since many here don't understand Inniscrone very well or like to penalize it without really seeing it, The 15th is a brilliant reachable par 5 with a sort of fall-away green and a Principal's Nose perfectly placed off of the tee. This hole is simple but perfect, with some of the best bunker work that now exists in the Philly Area. Redanman and I spent about twenty minutes there playing second shots and trying to go for the green, and to also look for the best way of attacking the green if you didn't make it.

And while we're at it..............

#12 at Inniscrone, which I think is one of the best holes on the course and worthy of copy anywhere.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Sorry Scott,
I spent over 30 minutes looking for my disk of pictures of Inniscrone, and didn't see you had posted it in between that time! We are for the most part on the same page about Inniscrone. A brilliant golf course with a few minor issues that could make it one of the best modern courses in the Philly area.

[Eckstein]

14-Olympia Fields
16-Medinah
16-Cog Hill
2-Chicago
15-Shoreacres
12-Skokie
16-Beverly

[Scott_Burroughs]

Eckstein,

The topic of the thread are holes built since 1960.

[Scott_Burroughs]

Although I think a good chunk of the holes you mention have had work done since 1960.  Perhaps only CGC and SA haven't had work done?  Or have they also?

[Brian_Gracely]

I'd include #13 at Tobacco Road (Par5).  Options for the long or short hitter off the tee; challenge on the 2nd shot to find a distance that fit a short approach to a narrow green, and a green set between a pair of dunes (albeit not natural) that is only about 15yds deep.  4 through "ball in pocket" are all very valid scores on #13.

[Mike Benham]

Spyglass # 4

Ps:  if the photo displays properly (from the PB website), it must be taken for artistic reasons as it does not show much of the hole ...

[Brian_Gracely]

Isn't Spyglass #4 supposed to be a replica or interpretation of Pine Valley #12?

[Rick Shefchik]

I'd still rework the front third of the green at Spyglass #4 if I were going to imitate that hole somewhere else. It's a fantastic golf hole, with the exception of the nearly unpinable front third (the green falls away to two lower tiers, for the few here who haven't played it or don't know it.)

Slightly flattening the upper tier would make #4 one of the best holes in the world -- and trying to figure out how to hit to a slightly more receptive front tier would be the most fun shot on the golf course.

My nomination for a modern hole worth copying is #16 at Hazeltine. Water is required -- real water, as in a lake, more preferable than something man-made, but man-made would work, too. Wind would also be necessary to truly recreate the fear factor here.

It's a relatively short par 4, just over 400 yards, with Lake Hazeltine running down the right side, and a creek running down the left. A lake inlet must be carried to reach the fairway, and the green juts out into the lake, which wraps around behind. Played into the wind from the tips, this hole is simply all-world.

[Doug Siebert]

Rick,

Its been a long time since I was there, but if I remember that hole correctly it is probably a poster child for technology destroying its value.  The inlet carry into the wind was just long enough you had to think with a lot of wind, but it surely isn't anything to sweat with modern equipment now...

A course I play frequently in town had kind of a similar fate.  It too had an inlet carry off the tee, of about 180 yards, and played into the prevailing wind.  I can well remember about 15 years ago when the course opened that with a balata ball and small headed steel driver, if the south wind was 20-25 mph you'd think about the water.  I recall taking a "water ball" (remember how some of us used to save our balatas that had gotten marked up a bit too much for use on water holes & such....that's certainly obsolete with the indestructible Pro V1) on some occasions when I wasn't so confident of my swing.  It didn't take a huge miss or the dreaded (and now also obsolete) undercut before you'd be watching that little white ball awfully carefully and hoping it made it (especially if you got it fading)

Nowadays that water doesn't even enter my thought process no matter how much wind there is, you just can't miss it bad enough with a big headed driver and modern ball that cuts through the wind.

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