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MargaretC

Re:What does Geoff like?
« Reply #125 on: September 17, 2003, 07:10:01 AM »
Quote

Margaret C,

I sit on several Boards in the same state as the USGA, including non-profit organizations, and I can assure you that D&O is a real concern to Board members, just as Medical Malpractice Insurance is a MAJOR concern to the physicians in this State.

This isn't the casual issue that you would have us believe, and the costs aren't minimal, and WILL increase, IF the coverage remains available.

Try obtaining liability insurance for your dog, after he's bitten the mailman once  ;D

Enron and other incidents have had and will continue to have their impact on the market place with respect to the availability and cost of D&O

The courts may decide that what you think is "acting in good faith" isn't, and the cost of that interpretation could be devastating.

I thought that the World Trade Center suffered two attacks, two seperate terrorist incidents, two planes at two different times.  But, the courts didn't see it that way, did they ?

Once a case goes to trial, who can guarantee the outcome ?

Other Organizations attempt to buffer D&O liability by offering the Organization as a shield, absorbing liability and costs, before the individual is targeted, but if the Organization has no net worth, guess who's next.

Patrick:

Of course, persons who serve on nonprofit Boards would naturally be concerned about liability issues. I'm a physician and well-aware of the cost of malpractice insurance in the NYC area and I also serve on nonprofit Boards.

Enron, etc., has had no impact on the cost of D&O coverage for the vast majority of nonprofit organizations, unless, of course, there has been a history of either criminal conduct or significant litigation.  

Generally courts establish good faith via use of a "reasonable person standard."

Rates for D&O insurance are primarily impacted by the value of the organization's assets, experience level and track record of each Director/Officer as well as the track record of the organization.  One of the nonprofit Boards on which I serve has held the minimum rate for D&O for over 10 years.  The annual premium is less than $3k.

Malpractice and nonprofit D&O cannot even be compared -- the litigation environments are completely different.

PS:  Keep a leash on that dog!   ::)

JohnV

Re:What does Geoff like?
« Reply #126 on: September 17, 2003, 08:02:58 AM »
Everyone should remember that when it comes to rules for equipment, there are two bodies involved and they like to agree on any changes.  One of those bodies (R&A) didn't like the COR changes the other (USGA) proposed and caused a split that is just being repaired.  When it comes to the ball, they definitely don't want a split.  Perhaps the blame should be directed to the other side of the pond.  Perhaps there are people at the USGA that are arguing for a change the R&A won't go along.  I will say that I have no inside knowledge regarding anything like this so I can't say that is the case, but perhaps we should go back and change "USGA" to "USGA & R&A" in all these equipment threads.

I do know that in regards to some of the other Rules of Golf, the R&A has been the sticking point for changes.  The relief for an embedded ball through the green and the change to time of starting allowing a two stroke penalty for being there within 5 minutes are two examples where the R&A won't go along so they remain local rules that are used in every competition in the US.

Patrick_Mucci

Re:What does Geoff like?
« Reply #127 on: September 17, 2003, 08:07:31 AM »
Margaret C,

Enron, etc., has had no impact on the cost of D&O coverage for the vast majority of nonprofit organizations, unless, of course, there has been a history of either criminal conduct or significant litigation.  

Generally courts establish good faith via use of a "reasonable person standard."

Rates for D&O insurance are primarily impacted by the value of the organization's assets, experience level and track record of each Director/Officer as well as the track record of the organization.  One of the nonprofit Boards on which I serve has held the minimum rate for D&O for over 10 years.  The annual premium is less than $3k.

Do not abandon medicine.
Insurance, its markets and pricing are not your forte  ;D

Patrick_Mucci

Re:What does Geoff like?
« Reply #128 on: September 17, 2003, 08:14:12 AM »
John V,

David Lee Roth, when asked if he was drifting away from his band, answered, "perhaps we are moving apart because they are standing still".

Could it be said that the R&A and USGA are in the same situation ???

If the two organizations were split on their respective stances on their standards and the effects of the ball and equipment, couldn't that split be exploited by the manufacturers in their lawsuits against the USGA ?

Michael Moore

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What does Geoff like?
« Reply #129 on: September 17, 2003, 08:36:43 AM »
Mr. Mucci -

Now I have this image of you driving to the course on Saturday morning, blasting some Van Halen to get pumped up for your match.

Say it ain't so.
Metaphor is social and shares the table with the objects it intertwines and the attitudes it reconciles. Opinion, like the Michelin inspector, dines alone. - Adam Gopnik, The Table Comes First

Patrick_Mucci

Re:What does Geoff like?
« Reply #130 on: September 17, 2003, 09:06:30 AM »
Michael Moore,

It ain't so !  ;D

JohnV

Re:What does Geoff like?
« Reply #131 on: September 17, 2003, 10:08:08 AM »
Shivas, I think you are on to something here.  Think about it, the changes at Riviera that are the worst have nothing to do with the length the ball is going.  The ugly bunker on 7, the misguided attempt to recreate the double fairway on 8, the green on 8, the green on 13.  All these have nothing to do with how far the ball is going.  The new back tee on 12 and the like are basically harmless changes in that only the biggest hitters are going back there anyway.

Also the changes to the bunkers at Merion that have been roundly ripped here have nothing to do with the length the ball is going.

Roll back the ball and people will still make those kinds of changes.

Geoff_Shackelford

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What does Geoff like?
« Reply #132 on: September 17, 2003, 10:28:18 AM »
John,
The USGA, the ball and keeping the course "up to date" are the reasons Riviera has been making changes to appease the USGA. It's all in writing, in memos and master plans. An Executive Committee member and staffers toured the course looking for length while making suggestions designed to deal with technology. I recently spoke to a GM at one course...they're looking for length because the USGA says they have to find it.

The USGA, in particular certain staff members, prefer the architect and shaping team on these classic courses because the architect would listen to them. (Haven't you noticed the trend by now?) Someone like Tom Doak would not ask "how high?" when the USGA says "jump." Tom Marzolf will, and he'll do it for free. And he has, and done it poorly. He would not be there if it wasn't for the USGA and his willingness to work pro-bono.

Roll back the ball and yes, the USGA staff and ExCom members will still suggest changes to courses because they seem to enjoy it, and they'll still use places like Riviera as leverage against places like Pebble Beach. But the frequency with which lousy changes happen will be reduced. Restoration might even stand a better chance of happening in the future, not just at USGA sites, but at the many courses not compromising pure restorations because they don't want to make their course vulnerable in today's game.

Shivas is definitely not onto something here.
Regards,
Geoff

JohnV

Re:What does Geoff like?
« Reply #133 on: September 17, 2003, 10:50:35 AM »
Geoff, doesn't the problem really lie with the ownership/management of Riviera that is chasing the golden ring.  By doing that and inviting the USGA in to "suggest" changes don't they invite this?  Even if they didn't invite the USGA wouldn't the PGA Tour have made similar suggestions if they were asked how to keep the LA Open there instead of having it go somewhere else?

Clubs will continue to ask the USGA what they need to do to get an event.  If they ask and the USGA feels that with some set of changes the event could be held, why shouldn't they answer?  Do you think they should say, "We won't come here the way the course is and we won't tell you what you have to do to get us here"?  No, they will say, "Right now the course is not up to the requirements for that event, but if you really would like it, we can tell you some things you need to do.  There are no guarantees that we will come there, but that is the only way we would consider it."

If the management at the club asked the USGA who could do the work, I would prefer the USGA to suggest a range of architects rather than just one.  Even if they did only suggest one, the club should still do the due diligence.

If the USGA was just using Riviera as leverage and had no intention of going there that is wrong.  It sounds like fraud to me.

Geoff_Shackelford

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What does Geoff like?
« Reply #134 on: September 17, 2003, 11:29:36 AM »
John,
You're starting to see why I am not letting this one go. Yes, it's fraud in my book. A "deception deliberately practiced in order to secure unfair or unlawful gain."

Just like when the NFL brought up the toxic waste site in Carson a few months ago to help in their negotiations with the Rose Bowl, Riviera and various other lesser courses are on the list that the USGA has handy when the places they want to go to, on their terms ($3 million in rent and a cut of the merchandise), are not cooperating in negotiations. Since the Open accounts for so much USGA revenue and certain diversification schemes have failed, it's vital for the USGA to get the most out of the Open each year. This is also why the Russian Tea Room is important in this equation no matter how much people want to say it's not. If it becomes a drain on their resources, it only reinforces the need to maximize Open revenues and play this little leverage game. That game includes a race to see who has jumped the most after the USGA said jump, so naturally, using the USGA's design ideas and the architects who will implement them is essential.

Yes, Riviera is stupid for going along with this, but they don't know any better and have no desire to learn from their mistakes. The PGA Tour has never made significant design suggestions for as long as I've been familiar with their efforts there. Some horrific fairway contours by a guy named Tom Brown a few years ago were fixed after a phone call from Ben Crenshaw. And there was a lame request for a "beveled" rough cut. That's about as far as the Tour has gone with their ideas. No beaming up and moving bunkers, no suggestions of adding false fronts to greens that never had them, and no additions of pin positions that never existed, and certainly no recommendations for added length to combat the Pro-V whatever is next.

There has been a fundamental change in philosophy at the USGA. A compromise of integrity. The courses must change to fit the way they see the sport being played and to protect the sanctity of par (translation: our egos). And the ramifications from that are just dreadful for the sport in so many ways, especially when you realize that these courses served the sport and the USGA quite well for a long, long time.
Geoff


DMoriarty

Re:What does Geoff like?
« Reply #135 on: September 17, 2003, 11:31:20 AM »
John, I dont know about the ugly bunker on 7, except to say that it is very very ugly.  

But I thought the new fairway on 8 was a result of them not having any place to move the tee box back over by the old fairway.  They made the hole much longer by putting tee boxes back in line with the new.  Thus taking the left completely out of play.


Shivas if you seriously believe that the driving force behind the changes we see isnt keeping up with technology then we have nothing to talk about.

John V,  the golden ring is the USGA's ring.  That is the real shame.  They are supposed to be protecting the game, and they are holding out the carrot that is ruining its finest courses.  We cannot control misguided management, but we can get rid of their golden ring, so they lose their excuse to mismanage.

Patrick_Mucci

Re:What does Geoff like?
« Reply #136 on: September 17, 2003, 11:31:47 AM »
Shivas,

At golf courses that I'm fairly familiar with in NY and NJ, many changes were done prior to any recent distance explosion.

Over the last 50 years many of the changes involved lengthening.  Other changes involved altering greens, adding bunkers, removing bunkers, etc., etc..

Too often green and long range planning committees, Boards and Presidents have changed golf courses to in an attempt to alter the independent tactical balance of the golf course, originally forged by the architect, to a balance that favors their particular games.

Many times, these changes have been masked under the quise of fairness.  Certain features may not be receptive to a segment of the memberships style of play, hence they seek to alter them in the name of fairness.  When the next group gets in, seeing what was done in the past, they too make attempts to alter the course in the name of fairness, which now takes its form from their style of play.  And as this process continues over a period of 20-50 years the course reflects the scars of all of the alterations, all of the attempts to make it more fair for different golfing styles within the club, and as such, the course loses its distinctive design, the one intended by the architect, leaving present day members with a quiltwork of amateur design attempts in the name of fairness.

I don't think Geoff is referencing these alterations, although,
this is where restoration can be invalueable.

I sense what Geoff is talking about is the more recent trend related to distance, narrow fairways, and high rough.

Narrow fairways may have started in the 50's with the advent of automatic irrigation systems, but they've been narrowed excessively due to the long ball, or focus on driving accuracy, and the demise of tactics and strategy, some of which is equipment related, some of which is maintainance related.

I'm told, that as of this weekend, Shinnecock could hold the OPEN.  I'm also told that the fairways are narrow and the golf course about 300 yards longer.  This can't be the ideal set-up for membership play, but, monkey see, monkey do, and that's the problem with the trend.  Will the golf course restore their fairway widths, as intended by the architect, or will they preserve the course that the PGA Tour players play, as the red badge of courage ?

Even Merion, which narrowed its fairways in preparation for a US OPEN has yet to restore them to their previous and ARCHITECTURALLY INTENDED width, despite the passing of 20-30 years.

This deprives the members of the strategic decisions and play, as intended by the architect, and that can't be good for those who play the golf course day in and day out.

One only has to look at the exalted position that NGLA holds to understand the genius of the architecture, combined with a harmonious maintainance meld, to understand why this course is almost universally praised.  It combines challenge with enjoyment for every level of golfer.  So, something must be terribly right about NGLA, and I think other clubs would serve their members well by trying to emulate what NGLA presents, rather then what golf courses set up for the PGA Tour present.

But, that's just my opinion, and TEPaul is still wrong.  ;D

GeoffreyC

Re:What does Geoff like?
« Reply #137 on: September 17, 2003, 11:44:44 AM »
The butt ugly new bunker on Riviera #7


Patrick_Mucci

Re:What does Geoff like?
« Reply #138 on: September 17, 2003, 11:50:16 AM »
Geoff Childs,

I'll bet, if you didn't identify the location of that bunker, and just posted it, some of the cognoscente would have drooled over it, and then choked, when they found out what and where it was.   ;D

Tommy_Naccarato

Re:What does Geoff like?
« Reply #139 on: September 17, 2003, 12:10:13 PM »
Pat, Not even close.......


Lynn_Shackelford

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:What does Geoff like?
« Reply #140 on: September 17, 2003, 12:22:14 PM »
John V.

A few changes made several years ago were not related to lengthening Riviera, but about 90% of changes are.
You probably aren't aware that this summer they have built a new tee for 18, making it about 470 yards.  Something about Chareles Howell hitting a sand wedge there last year.  I have no doubt management feared what the USGA would think about that.  They have lengthened the bunker on 15, inside of the dogleg, and also this summer added bunkers on the right side of the fairway on 17.  A shame to see this once "least altered of all of George Thomas' designs become a Thomas/Fazio looking course.  They will not get a US Open.  I suspect management is starting to learn that.  It has taken some time to realize they are a pawn.  In the process have damaged a great property.  You can blame Riviera ownership, but an average lawyer could prove the USGA as an accomplice.
A former manager there: "The Tour, they don't care about the course, they will play on a freeway if the money is right."
It must be kept in mind that the elusive charm of the game suffers as soon as any successful method of standardization is allowed to creep in.  A golf course should never pretend to be, nor is intended to be, an infallible tribunal.
               Tom Simpson

GeoffreyC

Re:What does Geoff like?
« Reply #141 on: September 17, 2003, 01:20:59 PM »
Pat

If we were we to go and play Riviera together we would greatly enjoy the first six holes.  Upon arriving at the 7th tee I would take out my camera and snap a picture of your face upon first seeing the bunker on #7. I guarantee you will not send that photo out to any relatives with the look on your face of horror and disgust. I believe I have fairly judged the works of all architects on my posts and you have no reason to think I am biased in any way  :) The bunker is out of character and butt ugly compared with the older originals.

Compare the photo above with

« Last Edit: September 17, 2003, 02:49:08 PM by Geoffrey Childs »

Robert_Walker

Re:What does Geoff like?
« Reply #142 on: September 17, 2003, 04:00:53 PM »
Geoff,
Since you think the USGA is on a downward spiral, how would you define their high water mark?

Tommy,
Regarding the Golf Journal....
I have remained quiet about that for several years for a number of personal reasons. Now that it no longer exists, I will say that the Journal began to auger in when David Earl died suddenly in France in October 1994.

DMoriarty

Re:What does Geoff like?
« Reply #143 on: September 17, 2003, 04:57:21 PM »
I'll bet, if you didn't identify the location of that bunker, and just posted it, some of the cognoscente would have drooled over it, and then choked, when they found out what and where it was.   ;D

Patrick, I try to steer well clear of these bunker "look" discussions.  They just dont interest me.  This particular bunker, though, should be used in the architectural renovation training manual under a section entitled "Sore Thumb."  For me it isnt really anything about the bunker, but much more about how it absolutely contrasts with the rest of the course.  

So, whatever my impression of the unidentified photo would be, my reaction would be the same seeing it in context.  This is definitely one you should see before you defend it.  

Patrick_Mucci

Re:What does Geoff like?
« Reply #144 on: September 17, 2003, 05:14:26 PM »
DMoriarty,

Do you mean to tell me that the picture isn't representative of all of the bunkers on the golf course, and that this one is out of context with the others, and the golf course in general ?   ;D

GeoffreyC

Re:What does Geoff like?
« Reply #145 on: September 17, 2003, 05:23:05 PM »
Patrick

Now you've got it.  ;) Look at the two photos.

DMoriarty

Re:What does Geoff like?
« Reply #146 on: September 17, 2003, 05:39:46 PM »
As I said, patrick, I try to stay out of bunker "look" discussions . . .  

Mike_Cirba

Re:What does Geoff like?
« Reply #147 on: September 17, 2003, 05:55:30 PM »
If you think that bunker is out of character, you should get a load of the one on #8.   ::) :-[

Tommy_Naccarato

Re:What does Geoff like?
« Reply #148 on: May 29, 2004, 03:20:28 AM »
Just to show that Scott Seward is clearly a person that has it in for Geoff, lets go back to this post from way back in September.

Scott, Its unfortunate you don't partcipate on here a lot, and I'm sure your plenty busy with work and all. However, I do find it ironic that the last two times I can recall you initiating conversation, it was to be critical of Geoff Shackelford.

What did Geoff do to you, soil your Russian Tea?

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