the orchards golf club, 2004 US Women's Open

[peter_mcknight]

The USGA jsut released the Orchards Golf Club's course set-up for this year's Women's Open.  It is at 6,473 yards, par 71.  The scorecard is as follows:

Hole 1--408 yards, par 4 (+10 yards from back tee)
Hole 2--359 yarsd, par 4 (+5 yards from back tee)
Hole 3--502 yards, par 5 (+10 yards from back tee)
Hole 4--421 yards, par 4 (0)
Hole 5--158 yards, par 3 (+10 yards from back tee)
Hole 6--384 yards, par 4 (+15 from back tee)
Hole 7--185 yards, par 3 (using the middle tee here)
Hole 8--388 yards, par 4 (+10 yards from back tee)
Hole 9--527 yards, par 5 (+25 yards from back tee)
OUT--3,332 yards, par 36

Hole 10--163 yards, par 3 (using the middle tee)
Hole 11--370 yards, par 4 (+15 yards from back tee)
Hole 12--344 yards, par 4 (+15 yards from back tee)
Hole 13--456 yards, par 5 (par changed from 4 to 5 here)
Hole 14--402 yards, par 4 (0)
Hole 15--377 yards, par 4 (0)
Hole 16--439 yards, par 4 (par changed from 5 to 4 here)
Hole 17--178 yars, par 3 (+15 yards from back tee)
Hole 18--412 yards, par 4 (using the middle tee)
IN--3,141 yards, par 35

Lastly, congratulations are in order to Arsenal, the Premiership champions and non-defeated at 26-12-0.  Watch out, gunners...United will hunt you down next season!

[Bob_Gold]

Thanks for this post.  They must have built some new tees. Is this what you mean by "+ 10 yards from back tee"?  
I'm not sure how this is possible on some of these holes.  I remember the back tees on the third hole being right up against the road.  Also, I don't remember there being another 25 yards of room behind the back tees at #9.  Another thing I remember was  some huge pines right behind the back tee at #17.  How did they make this whole 15 yards longer?  
I wonder if some of these yardages are padded.
I had heard they were going to make 13 a par 5 and 16 a par 4.  I'm not sure how that will play out.
I was there when Michele McGann won the junior and she was the longest hitter there.  With today's technology she'd be at least 25 yards longer.
I hope the course is up to championship conditions when they play.  I love the course but this has always been it's weakest link (pardon the pun).
I bought a book of 10 anyday passes and hope to make it out there with some friends for a few days.
See you at The Orchards.
 

[DTaylor18]

Bob, they did build some new tees.  They re-did a lot of them.  They also built a new practice facility.  I believe #16 has gone back and forth between a 4 and a 5.  The members paly it as a 5 and I think it's one of the best holes on the course.  I wish they would keep it a 5, use the back tee, and bring both 3 and 6 into play.  It would make for a great finish, in contrast to the moderate par 3 17th and then the brutish par 4 18th.  The green on #16 is good for a short par 5.  much easier with a wedge third but dangerous to try it in two, with a creek in front of it.  

[John_Conley]

Peter:

Help me out.  Arsenal went undefeated in English Premier play, the first team to do so since the 1800s.  But Manchester United won something else?  I don't get it.  Is there a season within a season that Americans don't have for football and baseball?

THANKS in advance.

[Brad Klein]

At The Orchards, nine tees were rebuilt including new back ones at 6, 9 and 17. They've also added an extensive practice range tee.

The USGA went back and forth as to whether the 16th should play as a 4 or a 5, and they ultimately decided that it should play as a long 4. It will make for a tough finish, with the 16th green domed (though unbunkered) and a creek 20 yards short in front. 18 will also be very tough - long, uphill, to 2-tier green.

They could have gone either way on 16, but I love that they made the 13th a par-5. It's uphill, slants left to right, and is an ideal hole for long-hitters going for it.

Despite much consternation and speculation, the course will be in pretty decent shape in 5 weeks; the maintenance staff has done quite a good job.

[THuckaby2]

Peter:

Help me out.  Arsenal went undefeated in English Premier play, the first team to do so since the 1800s.  But Manchester United won something else?  I don't get it.  Is there a season within a season that Americans don't have for football and baseball?

THANKS in advance.

JC - soccer has so many different tournaments/championships/cups, there is always something for someone to win.

Manchester United recently won the "FA Cup", which is a knockout tournament (ie single elimination - with the cool proviso that a tie means a complete replay).

Arsenal went undefeated in the Premier League regular season, and for that they get a cup whose name I can't recall right now...

Then many of these teams qualify for various cups involving other leagues in the UK, as well as Europe.

Then many of the individual players play on national teams, and that runs concurrently with all of this, in different competitions as well (European Cup, World Cup, qualifiers for each, other friendlies).

All of this goes on concurrrently, pretty much year round.  Teams play each other and it counts for one thing one week, another the next.  It's all perfectly normal to soccer fans, but confusing as all hell to everyone else.  

So real English/European football fans:  how did I do explaining this?

TH

[Tony_Chapman]

I also see the USGA has given Ms. Wie an exemption from all qualifying into the tournament. I believe they are already paired her with Daneille Amacapanee (sp?)  

On a different note, I am excited to see this championship. I have read about the Ross course in Golf has Never Failed Me and it appears quite impressive.

[Dan_Callahan]

I heard they are planning on starting the greens at 10.5 on the Stimp (as opposed to 11.5 at Shinnecock) for Thursday at the Open, giving them room to speed things up over the weekend. I almost wish they would consider going slower to open up some more extreme hole locations. The 9th hole comes to mind as one that doesn't allow for many options when the greens are fast—the front falls away into a creek. On a slow green, middle left has some great (and difficult) hole locations that are unusable when the ball is really rolling.

[John_Conley]

Hucks:

This sounds analogous to the NFL having a regular season that means a lot.  Winner is crowned.  THEN the playoffs to the Super Bowl, which also means a lot.  Concurrently, the Jets and others may have to play for the Not F A Cup against the best teams from Canada, Mexico, the Arena League, and NFL Europe.  That also means a lot.  Right?

I guess it just seems so foreign since they are concurrent.  Kind of like college basketball with tournaments at Thanksgiving, New Year's, March (for the conference) and a regular season, all not as big as the NCAA tournament.

[THuckaby2]

JC - on a very basic level it's actually not the same as NFL or other American sports at all.  Here, every game counts toward the same thing... regular season gets you in playoffs, then from there it's elimination, either in single or series format, which occurs at the end.  In college hoops and soccer and some other sports there are in-season tournaments, but they are typically one-weeked kinda things and their results in some way or another do count toward making the big tournament at the end, as you know.

There, the FA Cup is run concurrently, in SEPARATE games from the Premier League season, starting early and running on a different time frame... IE Man U defeated Arsenal awhile back in the FA Cup semis, a game that had absolutely no bearing on Premier League play, in which Arsenal remained unbeaten.

Then you have all the other cups running along side these... in games that mean something only to the Cup for which they are being played....

It is foreign to us, as I'm sure our way is to them!

TH

[John_Conley]

Tom:

Thanks for clearing this up for me, but I think I get it.  My mention of college basketball tournaments is one you - correctly point out - as affecting At-Large bids for the NCAA.  But other than that, the Maui Classic has nothing to do with the Big Ten standings or the automatic bid to the NCAA.

I'd have to live there a LONG time to accept that as "just the way it is"!!!

I'm sure a Brit might wonder about us.
*  NBA and NHL - You mean EVERYONE makes the playoffs and they still play Best-of-7?
*  College Football - Is it better to be voted #1, or default there for winning the BCS title game?
*  Golf and tennis - I know it's not a major, but it pays just as much!
* Arena football - These guys could get HURT!  Why do they play again?

[THuckaby2]

Tom:

Thanks for clearing this up for me, but I think I get it.  My mention of college basketball tournaments is one you - correctly point out - as affecting At-Large bids for the NCAA.  But other than that, the Maui Classic has nothing to do with the Big Ten standings or the automatic bid to the NCAA.

I'd have to live there a LONG time to accept that as "just the way it is"!!!

I'm sure a Brit might wonder about us.
*  NBA and NHL - You mean EVERYONE makes the playoffs and they still play Best-of-7?
*  College Football - Is it better to be voted #1, or default there for winning the BCS title game?
*  Golf and tennis - I know it's not a major, but it pays just as much!
* Arena football - These guys could get HURT!  Why do they play again?

Well said! I guess I just still think it's a fundamental difference when by rule, Man U's win over Arsenal in the FA Cup semis means absolutely nothing in Premier League play... the situation where two teams who play each other one week in which it means one thing, another week in which it doesn't.. and none of this holds any sway in either team's qualification for UEFA Cup, the big tourney for all club teams in Europe...

In college hoops, it doesn't often happen that teams from the same conference play each other in a mid-season or pre-season tournament, thereby creating this situation where a game doesn't "count"... and even if they did, as you know it still would count toward worth for at-large bids to big dance later on.

That to me is very different from the soccer situation.

Oh well... your examples are great!  Like I say, I'm sure they think we are weirder than we think they are.

There's a twisted sentence, huh?

TH

[Brad Klein]

Dan Callahan,

I don't know where you heard those target green speeds for The Orchards but they are above what folks at the course and the USGA have been talking about generally. By the way, there's no creek near the green on the 9th hole; I asume you meant the 10th, where speeds are an issue since that putting surface is heavily contoured and doesn't offer a lot of room on a tricky par-3.

[Dan_Callahan]

Brad—you are right, I meant to say the 10th.

The greens rolling at 10.5 came from Tom Meeks at yesterday's media day (a friend of mine caught him in his car while I cowered in my golf cart trying to avoid the rain and lightning strikes). Did you have a chance to tour the course? (I assume you were there as well?) I only saw the 1st hole, but it looked to be in significantly better shape than it was last summer.

[Bob_Gold]

"Here's why Wie got a special exemption: It will help TV ratings, give a boost to ticket sales -- which are not going to be strong Fourth of July weekend in South Hadley, Mass"

This is from an article on ESPN.COM.  I don't think the second part is true.  From what I've heard, ticket sales have been brisk and they expected to almost sell out even if she wasn't there.

[Brad Klein]

Dan Callahan,

I've been playing The Orchards for nearly 30 years, and have been up there twice last fall and three times this winter/spring to check things out, inc. yesterday. I'm pleased to say the place has come along nicely - certainly from last summer. If Tom Meeks gave out that number of 10.5 Stimp speed, I don't think it was at the public part of the session, where he talked about mowing heights but nothing detailed on greens. If your friend got that in the parking lot from him, that's very interesting. Knowing how the USGA works, that 10.5 is probably on the high side, if marginally. You get those greens that fast and they won't finish play the first two days.

[Dan_Callahan]

If your friend got that in the parking lot from him, that's very interesting. Knowing how the USGA works, that 10.5 is probably on the high side, if marginally. You get those greens that fast and they won't finish play the first two days.

I thought it sounded fast as well. Last summer when the greens weren't exceptionally quick, I was above the hole on 2, 10 and 18 and had a really tough time lagging my putt (of course, I'm a pretty lousy putter, which certainly played a role in my difficulties). Also, my friend spoke to Tom during the thunder storm, so I don't think Tom gave it a great deal of thought before answering. He did throw in the 11.5 comment about Shinnecock though, so maybe there's some merit to it.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Brad Klein,

It's hard to believe that people can predict weather patterns and agronomic conditions months in advance.

Perhaps they should become consultants to golf clubs, or ..... fortune tellers

[Brad Klein]

Pat, why is that hard to predict? Superintendents and turf consultants do it all of the time for a living and in terms of turf conditions, seem to do a very good job of it. It's not hard for them to figure out growth rates, and once they know soil types. turf type, climate, ambiant temperatures, water quality, level of play, and the quality and budget of the maintenance, they make reasonable assumptions all of the time. To be sure, they they don't "predict" weather months in advance, but they do have a basic idea and make basic assumptions - that cool season grasses shut down when soil temps drop below 50 degrees, and that above 62 degrees, things pop like crazy. They also have very detailed charts as to when, on average, that happens, qualified by altitude, climate zone, tree coverage, etc. That sort of stuff is basic to their science. It's not all guesswork, and it's not all pure technique, but if they couldn't combine those skills then nobody could grow-in a golf course, get it ready for a season of play or, in the south or southwest, know when to overseed.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Brad Klein,

Predicting the pace of greens, for four days, months in advance of their play remains largely dependent on the vicisitudes of the weather during the period leading up to the event and during the event.

Mother Nature still holds the upper hand despite the best of skills and efforts by superintendents.

I've seen overseeding disasters when cloudy or cool weather prevailed for an extended period of time, conditions that were unpredictable.  Conversely, I've seen a prolonged hot spell wreak havoc on golf courses.   I've also seen excessive rains ruin a grow-in attempt, or at least extend it well beyond the target date.  All of these factors create havoc with budgets.

I've seen superintendents lose their jobs because weather patterns created terrible playiing conditons.  The one that I best recall was a few years ago, in Florida, when it was cloudy for about six weeks straight in January and February.

While an intent may be present, the goal is sometimes beyond man's control.  Don't fool with, or discount Mother Nature.

[Brad Klein]

Pat, there's no need to be theatrical here. Sure, there are some missteps and goofups, but the overwhelming majority of superintendents and agronomists do pretty well with some basic science and some ongoing knowledge. You make it sound like every day is a morality play. It's not that complicated - for them. It might be to a complete novice member or to a bully expecting speeds of 13.7 every day. Of course that's really the only time when courses get into trouble - when they overstep speeds and mowing heights for a few more days than they should and a fixed goal irrespective or weather variance and other conditions is set. But the vast bulk of everyday course set-ups are well within the range of common knowledge and skilled greenkeepers. The problem, as you well know, is when exteme expectations are imposed as the norm.

[Dan_Callahan]

I think the green speeds are a goal of the USGA, but not a guarantee. Certainly if it were to rain every day between now and the end of June, they would have a hard time getting them to roll at 10.5 (and in New England, 30 days of rain in June is an unfortunate possibility as we experienced last year). One only needs to look at the 2003 PGA at Oak Hill to see how mother nature foibled the plans of top professionals. I don't think there's any way the PGA expected the rough to get as long and thick as it did as a result of the hot, wet weather. And once it grew in thick, there was no way they could cut it back for the tournament. Given Tom Meeks's long experience with course setup, however, if he wants the greens at 10.5, my guess is he'll find a way to get them there.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Brad Klein,

I wasn't referencing superintendents in general, but, the ability of someone to predict green speeds for four days, months in advance of the event.

Many golf/country club members forget that a superintendent has to deal with Mother Nature and expect the golf course to be perfect irrespective of adverse weather conditions, which can be both cummulative and date specific.

Dan Callahan,

That makes sense.

Establishing a goal is prudent, reaching it is sometimes dependent on forces beyond our control.

[peter_mcknight]

Good morning, all...

The FA Cup is a competition arranged by the Football Association (aka, the FA) to include all levels of professional football in England.  So long as you are a registered professional team in England and meet and abide by the standards set forth by the FA, you can submit an entry into the FA Cup.  It is the ultimate knock out competition in world sport.  Who knows, someone from the football conference (below division 3) could get to the 4th, 5th or 6th rounds.

The competition starts in early August with the extra preliminary round, then a preliminary round, 4 qualifying rounds which then creates the competition proper.  I believe the winner in the preliminary round receives 75 pounds or something.

The 1st round proper introduces the 3d division teams, the 2d round introduces the 2d division teams and the 3d round introduces the division 1 teams and the Premiership.

In all rounds through the 6th round, if the game ends in a draw, there is a replay and the venue switches.  For the next FA Cup, the replays will be eliminated after the 3d round proper (games will go into AET and spot kicks if necessary).  In the past, all games that ended in a draw after 90 minutes went to a replay, including finals (see United's 1990 triumph over Crystal Palace, 3-3 in the first match, 1-0 in the replay).

The match for United, while quite less important than the Premiership and the UCL, is meaningful because it allows United to claim some silverware this season and participate in the Community Shield in Cardiff next year against Arsenal.  Furthermore, because of United's failure in the UCL, the game had financial implications for United because winning the game allowed United to claim upwards of 6-10M pounds and allowed them to nearly match what Arsenal bagged from an extra round in the UCL.

Furthermore, Millwall, by being the finalists, secured a UEFA Cup spot, which squeezed out Aston Villa from European football in 2004-05 (the FA Cup finalist gets a UEFA Cup spot and 'Boro claimed the other by winning the Carling (league) Cup in January).

The Gunner/United game at Villa Park was great theatre, but the best match of the 2004 FA Cup was the 4th round between Spurs and Man. City.  Spurs went up 3-0 at White Hart Lane, but City went a man down (sent off) at the stroke of half time.  City, with 10 men, scored 4 in the second half to beat Spurs 4-3.  City were then beaten in the 5th round at Old Trafford by 10 man United 4-2 when G Neville got sent off after a dive in the area and heat butting MacManaman.

At least United went 2-2-0 against Arsenal this past season (win in the Comm Shield and in the FA Cup Semi, 2 draws in the premiership).

Lastly, the Gunners weren't undefeated; a title like that would be reserved to the 1972 Dolphins.  I call what they did, not only remarkable, but non-defeated.