Shinnecock, The Pros & Width - Praised or Panned ?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Previously, after several US Opens, it seemed that the PGA Tour Pros universally praised the golf course at Shinnecock.

With the wind an ever present factor, will that praise continue or will it take a sharp turn for the worse in light of the narrow, ribbon like fairways ?

With the rain and temperature patterns this spring, the rough should be...... really rough.

If the winds blow, and scores soar, will praise turn into condemnation ?

And if so, will it be directed at Shinnecock, the USGA, or both ?

Or, will the golf course continue to be praised, despite soaring scores ?

[ForkaB]

If they really are pinching in the fairways, and the rough is gnarly, and the wind happens to blow, it will be Carnoustie 99 all over again--"Strategy Negated--Return of the Idiot Savants."  If that's what the USGA wants, so be it--they may be idiots but it's their tournament, and their prerogative to set the course up any way they see fit--even if that is an idiot's delight!

I'm hoping for the best, but if my fears come true I think that the USGA should forget taking it's annual love fest to places like Shinnecock--that course deserves much better.  If they screw this one up, they should stick to the Torrey Pines' of the world for the forseeable future.  IMVHO

[Mike_Sweeney]

I'm hoping for the best, but if my fears come true I think that the USGA should forget taking it's annual love fest to places like Shinnecock--that course deserves much better.  If they screw this one up, they should stick to the Torrey Pines' of the world for the forseeable future.  IMVHO

Yikes, I can't imagine them not using Pebble and Shinnecock as the two anchors of the rotation, but who knows.

Patrick,

I would think that the USGA, not Shinnecock, would be targeted if the scores soar.

[A_Clay_Man]

pat- Why is the opine of premadonnas important?

Does it determine the worth or greatness of any course?

[Patrick_Mucci]

pat- Why is the opine of premadonnas important?

Does it determine the worth or greatness of any course?

Adam, when the PGA Tour Pros have a history of universally praising the golf course, I think their opinions, in the context of the newly narrowed fairways, is germane to architectural discussions

[A_Clay_Man]

Pat, Are you predicting someone of prominance to actually state, that the set-up, is bad?

And what is the main bone? That the bunkers are not in play for a bouncing ball? Angles? or, Is there more, to just the narrowness?

.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Adam,

I think you'd have to see it to understand, but, when the fairway acreage is reduced from the mid to low forties to the mid twenties, in light of the winds, that's a dramatic alteration.

[Rick Shefchik]

Shinnecock's reputation is unassailable. The reputations of those who set up the course for a given event are always open to assail.

But can the club members completely absolve themselves of culpability if an Open turns into a wind-blown hack-it-out-into-the-fairway fest? Members of Open rota courses take deep pride in their courses' ability to resist low scores. I doubt that the USGA has to plead with the locals to toughen up their course.

If they take it over the top at Shinnecock, the pros will know who to blame. Carnoustie didn't suffer much damage to its reputation when Jean van de Velde almost won there, but the R&A probably won't set up that course the same way the next time the Open is played there.

[Jason Mandel]

I talked to a very good amateur this weekend who said he was up there recently.  He said it was ridiculous how pinched the fairways were.  People alread say this is the toughest course in the world, i can only imagine what it is like now witht the rough up and the fairways in and the wind blowing .  The distance issue will surely take a back seat for that week.

Jason

[Scott_Burroughs]

When the Open was at Bethpage 2 years ago, they seemed to universally like the course, but when the wind and rain howled and the fairway couldn't be reached by several at #10, they blamed the USGA set-up, not the course.

However, pinched faiways is another matter.  How many pros see the course at other times when it's not pinched to compare?  But I think they know that the course is going to be narrow, because it's the U.S. Open.  

[Jeff Goldman]

Pat,

   How have you perceived comments from pros on golf courses in the past?  When they have criticized courses, have they done so for reasons generally anathema to many here?  Do they bemoan blind shots, bunkers that don't give perfect lies, unrewarded shots struck perfectly but that may not have ended well because they were not well thought out, as well as holes where the best shot may not be a high one directly at the hole?  As to the course itself, will the redan play as a redan, or are pros good enough so that they will just hit it high at the pin?  If the latter, does architecture matter at all to the pros (I think Shivas made a similar point a while ago)?

   As for the general perception of the course, isn't it more likely that a course's reputation will suffer if it is perceived as playing too easy rather than too hard?  I did not see Bethpage or Oak Hill drop in the ratings or in public perception, despite the course set ups.  

Jeff Goldman

[Patrick_Mucci]

Scott Burroughs,

I saw Bethpage before the US Open and played it shortly after the US Open.

The fairways at Shinnecock appear to be about 1/2 to 2/3  their width, and with stronger winds off of the nearby ocean, that's narrow.

Jeff Goldman,

I think you need to reread my opening post again to gain perspective with respect to the context in which the comments about Shinnecock, by the PGA Tour Pros is presented, from a historical and current perspective.

In addition, this thread isn't about ratings.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Redanman,

When you see a foursome and two caddies walking down the fairways............ single file....... you know they're narrow  

[Nigel_Walton]

I do not recall a great deal of criticism of Carnoustie as a golf course when the R & A improperly set the course for the Open. I do recall a firestorm directed at the R & A. So, if the USGA have applied a  "Carnoustie-ization" to your beloved Shinnecock, I would imagine Shinnecock will be free from scorn, but the poor USGA officials may not be.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Nigel Walton,

Perhaps people should consider the consequences BEFORE making a decision.

[Nigel_Walton]

Certainly, Patrick.

[CHrisB]

I was at Shinnecock Hills yesterday and it certainly looks like it will be ready come tournament time. The greens are soft and green right now, with the balls spinning back on holes like #9. The fairways will certainly be cut lower than they are right now for the tournament. Right now it appears like the rough closer to the fairway (the thick green stuff) is more uniformly punishing than the fescue roughs farther from the fairway. It seemed like there was ample opportunity to catch a favorable lie in the tall, wispy fescue areas than the lush, green rough ares just off the fairway and first cut. So it might be best to miss it big (in a year Tiger is hitting so few fairways--hmmm.....)!

The fairways certainly are very narrow, probably 2/3 of normal width according to people at the club. But the effective fairway size on holes like the 14th is really small because of the slope of the ground there.

Still hard to say how it might play for the U.S. Open, though. Mike Weir was there the other day and shot 68 (-2) from the U.S. Open tees in calm conditions. (Word is that some at Shinnecock weren't happy with that, but gee whiz, shouldn't a Masters champion be allowed to shoot under par in easy conditions?)

What amazed me about the area was just how quickly the weather (and wind) can change, with different seasons in the same day even without weather systems moving through. I'd imagine the draw could be important for players in rounds 1 & 2, hoping to avoid any spells of wind, cold or rain that might pop up.

I can't remember the Tour pro (major champion, possibly a U.S. Open champion) who said that Shinnecock was so good that the USGA couldn't mess it up. But the point is that another embarrassing course set-up issue (given the recent similar problems at Bethpage, Olympic, Southern Hills, etc.) will again fall at the USGA's feet, and Shinnecock Hills should rightly escape unscathed.

[Doug Siebert]

The impression of Carnoustie among most golfers has changed as a result of that setup, however.  Most people believe it to be a nearly impossibly tough course, and not realizing that the normal day to day setup one encounters playing there at other times while still not easy, is far less demanding than what the pros faced that week in 1999.  On the other hand, you have a course like Muirfield that is set up just as tough in its day to day form -- in fact, several of members and regular visitors there said that they actually mow the rough LOWER in preparation for the Open because the wanted it to be possible to at least make a swing at the ball to attempt a recovery to the fairway, and some of the rough in certain areas growing at 4' when I was there in 2001 made that impossible.

This thing is kind of irrelevant for Shinnecock though because few people will have an opportunity to play it, so having a mistaken impression as to its actual difficulty based on what happens during the US Open won't really matter.  It matters more for public venues like Bethpage.

On the other hand, people thinking a course is impossible has the odd side effect of getting even poor golfers to want to play it.  I can understand a good player wanting to compare his game to that of the pros by facing the same course, if only to realize how far his game really is from theirs, but for a guy who struggles to break 100 from the regular tees on his home course, it makes little sense.  But it sounds like Bethpage has been cashing in, and Carnoustie probably does more business than they did when they were out of the Open rota for several decades.

[Patrick_Mucci]

To All,

What if Shinnecock maintains these fairway widths long after the Open departs ?

Then is the club "held harmless" ?

[TEPaul]

To All,
What if Shinnecock maintains these fairway widths long after the Open departs ?
Then is the club "held harmless"?

Pat:

In my opinion---absolutely not. The club should revert their fairways out of that Open narrowness. I was told at one point that they were thinking of keeping them that way for a time after the Open simply to give guests and such an opportunity to see and play the course under that Open set-up and I certainly have no problem with that---as long as they don't forget the fairway widths the course should maintain in ordinary times.

Merion claimed a few years ago they actually forgot to restore back their fairway width from the 1971 Open and they remained relatively narrow with some bunkering way out in rough area for over 30 years!

In my opinion, Shinnecock could make one helluva interesting statement by going back and forth from original fairway width to Open width and back again--because the difference is really substantial. It'd show the world what a really interesting architectural form of "ELASTICITY" is all about and it would also show the many iterations of a great golf course!

[Patrick_Mucci]

TEPaul,

I think that's a good idea, keeping the fairways with the Open set-up for a short while to give members and guests a flavor of what the course played like during the Open.

The danger in that is, like Merion, 33 years go by and the fairways never get restored.

Inertia and time have a funny way of affecting the perception of those charged with the keep of the golf course.

Remember too, that the road to hell is paved with good intentions.

From an agronomic point of view, what would be the ideal time to cut back the rough and restore the fairways ?

[Brian_Gracely]

Merion claimed a few years ago they actually forgot to restore back their fairway width from the 1971 Open and they remained relatively narrow with some bunkering way out in rough area for over 30 years!

I suppose Merion's use of "forgot" is sort of like your story about not saying "would like like ANOTHER drink".....it's the Blue Blooded way of saying "we screwed up"

In my opinion, Shinnecock could make one helluva interesting statement by going back and forth from original fairway width to Open width and back again--because the difference is really substantial. It'd show the world what a really interesting architectural form of "ELASTICITY" is all about and it would also show the many iterations of a great golf course!

This is incorrect.  If Shinnecock wanted to show "the world" about elasticity, they would adopt the policies of the courses in the UK and allow limited outside play.  Don't confuse "the world" with members and their guests.  

OR BETTER YET.....play the first two days of the US Open with narrow fairways, and the weekend with original widths.  THAT would show the world about elasticity.

[LenBum]

Let me address the fairway width issue. The average width is in the 26 yard range. The 4th,13th and 14th are 23 yards across at the 270 yard mark off the tee. Interesting is that the par 5 5th is the widest at approx. 31 yards wide. Also, the 2nd shot layup area on the par 5 16th is a ridiculous 33 yards across at the 115 yard marker. We have also not grown the rough around the 16th green as in 1995. It's fairway height all the way to the green, tempting the players to go for it, as opposed to 1995 when there was 4" rough out 30 yards from the green making their decision much easier. As in 1995 I think the players will be surprised at how much space the USGA has given them. I caddied for Bob Ford last year a few months after we narrowed the fairways to the width they are now. After his drive on the 6th he asked me when we were going to bring the fairways in. When I told him they were he was quite surprised. He shot 66 that day. Just 3 holes were lengthened a total of about 90 yards. The 4th hole, lenthened 30 yards will be a nightmare if the usual SW winds blows 15-20 mph. If the wind doesn't blow and the greens soft we could see some very low scores.
If they keep a stat for it this Open might see the fewest number of drivers hit ever in an Open. Not because of the width of the fairways but because they won't have to hit many, especially the top 20 percent of the long hitters.
So far the weather has been good. Yesterdays rain will make the rough go ballistic. We just need the rain to stop a week before the Open.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Brian Gracely,

You're aware that your suggestion to return the fairways to original widths for the weekend can't succeed from an agronomic and playability perspective, aren't you ?

[TEPaul]

Brian Gracely:

I'm getting really sick of hearing crap like "blue blood" and "screwed up" all the time from people like you about some of the things various clubs do and want to do. And don't give me this crap about the democratic attitude of various European clubs vs a club like Shinnecock. The European clubs let people come and play their courses the way they do because they want and need the money--believe me, I know, because I specifically asked a number of them over there about that. If they didn't need the money they'd do the same thing Shinnecock does.

And Pat's right--in the name of elasticity returning fairways to their original widths at Shinnecock for the weekend is about the stupidest suggestion I've heard on here in a long time. Do you even know what golf agronomy is?