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Matt_Ward

Re:Super Bashing?
« Reply #75 on: May 19, 2004, 07:32:32 PM »
David:

Please define the word "extensive" as in the amount of ground game one can find at a course? Is it "extensive" when you have half the holes with a ground option? Does it mean 2/3's of the holes with such an option? A little clarity would help.

As an FYI -- I am not suggesting Pinon Hills provides for the ground game to the level of say a Royal Portruch or County Down.

I believe you may have missed my point previously -- from the times I have played Pinon Hills the amount of man applied water is clearly an issue for me. Such a situation has only aggravated the situation towards more and more of an aerial game.

There are a number of instances from my memory that a ground game option could be maximized if the amount of man applied H20 would be lessened. Even after I played Pinon last spring the amount of H20 was still high for my tastes although Adam had said it was less than in previous years.

A_Clay_Man

Re:Super Bashing?
« Reply #76 on: May 19, 2004, 07:36:36 PM »
", let me clarify again.  I am not opining whether PH is currently being maintained properly.  I have now idea.  I am just questioning whether the course was designed with extensive use of the ground game in mind."

 i'll agree with that.

Lou_Duran

Re:Super Bashing?
« Reply #77 on: May 20, 2004, 12:17:49 AM »
David M.-

No slap at the classics.  I am a big, big fan of that era, and play some of my better golf on these courses.

The point that I was trying to make to George Pazin about Black Mesa and the Rawls course was that if a person can play a ground game to their severely undulating greens, that he could do the same thing at Pinion Hills, and probably with greater control.

I have played two rounds at PH and the greens did not strike me as being overly complicated.  It is the wet condition of the entries and not the angled tiers that presents a bigger problem for me.  Since the greens also appeared to be maintained on the soft side, there was no great need or advantage gained by playing the ball along the ground.  It is not an issue of the greens being ill-designed for the ground game as opposed to course conditions making it a less rewarding option.

 

DMoriarty

Re:Super Bashing?
« Reply #78 on: May 20, 2004, 12:21:51 AM »
David:

Please define the word "extensive" as in the amount of ground game one can find at a course? Is it "extensive" when you have half the holes with a ground option? Does it mean 2/3's of the holes with such an option? A little clarity would help.

As an FYI -- I am not suggesting Pinon Hills provides for the ground game to the level of say a Royal Portruch or County Down.

I believe you may have missed my point previously -- from the times I have played Pinon Hills the amount of man applied water is clearly an issue for me. Such a situation has only aggravated the situation towards more and more of an aerial game.

There are a number of instances from my memory that a ground game option could be maximized if the amount of man applied H20 would be lessened. Even after I played Pinon last spring the amount of H20 was still high for my tastes although Adam had said it was less than in previous years.


Matt, I didnt miss your point, it is just that I have no opinion on it whatsoever.  I've said repeatedly that I am not offering any opinion on whether they are overwatering at Pinion.  How could I?  I havent been there at years.  

As for what I mean by "extensive" I really dont think that is at issue here at all.   If extensive ground game options provides one end of a large spectrum of courses, Pinion Hills is nowhere near that end.  

Nor do I doubt that a creative golfer might find opportunities to use the ground game at Pinion, or any other course.  It might also be possible to skip the ball across the water at Sawgrass and somehow get in on the green.  The water game?    

I am having trouble believing that anyone who has seen those greens really believes that they are readily approachable via the ground game, no matter what the conditions.  I wish I had some photographs.  

DMoriarty

Re:Super Bashing?
« Reply #79 on: May 20, 2004, 12:56:48 AM »
Lou,

Lou, it has nothing to do with "complicated" greens but rather whether or not angles and slopes will allow you to work your ball to certain locations on the green.

Under normal conditions, when it is still possible to stop your ball, are there any holes at Pinion which favor a ground approach rather than an aerial approach?  

And Lou, the pictures below brought back some memories of the course:  

-- What is it about the design of the course (rather than the desert environment) which makes you think that it is not a parkland design?  

--If the design stayed exactly the same, but if all the Pinions were replaced with Sycamores (Sycamore Hills?) and the dry arroyos with running water or lakes, would you still contend it is not a parkland design?  

-- And if it is not a parkland design, then what kind of a design is it?  It has an awful lot of buffering to consider it a desert design.  

_____________________________


I cant find any photographs, but I did find the Farmington Park and Rec site, which has what look like the yardage guide pages.  Obviously one cannot get a feel for the severity of slopes between tiers, but the photos give a general idea of the openings, angles, and positioning of the tiers.  








Lou_Duran

Re:Super Bashing?
« Reply #80 on: May 20, 2004, 10:21:15 AM »
David,

I understand your point about the tiered greens at PH.  Again, my comment to Mr. Pazin was that if one could play a ground game at Black Mesa and the Rawls Course, two places where the gentleman had played last year, that he could do it at PH as well- provided that the green entries weren't over-watered.

For me, the aerial game is easier for me at PH as well as most courses because I can generally control my distance and don't have a problem with putting spin on the ball.  The exception to this rule is when the wind is blowing hard that I prefer to play the ball low to the ground.  Also, my objective when I play golf is much more modest- I am just trying to get the ball on or close to the greens in regulation.  When I happen to get both distance and direction right and the ball finds the proper tier, it is a very pleasant, welcomed surprise.

I don't want to get into a semantics debate on what a parkland golf course is and is not.  Suffice it to say, that the pinion pines do not resemble the oak, walnut, hickory, maple, and the occasional elm trees on the courses that I learned to play on in northcentral Ohio.  The PH site is exposed to the elements, primarily the wind, as well as having a rather harsh and rugged terrain.  The holes at PH are not framed or isolated like at numerous parkland courses, and the ground beyond where the irrigation reaches is much harder.  While PH is arguably overwatered, it is hardly lush.  Unlike many parkland courses which have several greens protected on the front and sides by bunkers, mounds, and swails, PH are generally open at the front.

That Ken Dye left the green entries open is an indication that he wanted the course to be playable on the ground as well at the option of the player.  And let's face it, most people have trouble getting the ball airborne with any degree of control.

BTW, I don't know which desert courses you've played.   I  have not played very many, but those that I have use sand and the rugged, open terrain as primary obstacles.  PH may not be a traditional desert course like we see on TV at Palm Springs and Scottsdale.  It has been a long time since I played Desert Forest, but perhaps PH is more similar to this type of course in a high desert environment.



     

« Last Edit: May 20, 2004, 10:26:04 AM by Lou_Duran »

A_Clay_Man

Re:Super Bashing?
« Reply #81 on: May 20, 2004, 10:37:29 AM »
Correct Lou, The majority of the holes have a very reasonable caryy directly in front of the teeing grounds and as the level of player moves "up" to play the shorter, the carry is diminished considerably. That leaves the long fairways typically found on Parkland and resort type courses.

I still doubt whether David is getting what everyone seems to be saying and that is that PH cannot really be pigeonholed and that's probably what I mean when I've said Ken Dye drew on many genres and styles to create Pinon Hills.

I could go hole by hole, scenario by scenario, shot after shot and show how a person can acheive a desired result by not aiming for that desired spot, implies a ground game to me.

I can hear DM's point about the rough and it's proximity to the greens, precludes something(?), but all I see it precluding, is some form of individualist maintenance that would be-fitting a well thoughtout design. But not many can afford. :'(

The thick rough at Pinon hills is uneeded. There are no design inadequacies that need to be hidden.
« Last Edit: May 20, 2004, 10:41:05 AM by Adam Clayman »

Matt_Ward

Re:Super Bashing?
« Reply #82 on: May 20, 2004, 08:12:56 PM »
David:

Thanks for your post but I believe you missed my point.

Pinon Hills can provide for the ground option if people so desire to execute it on a variety of holes there. I never intimated that the NM layout is comparable to that of Portrush or County Down on the degree by which the ground game is involved with those two courses or others of a similar nature.

The issue boils down to the day-to-day preparation in which turf is routinely kept too wet for anyone to sensibly try it when playing.

David --I played the course in May of last year and even with some water being appliedby man's hand the option for the ground game did exist on a few holes. If even less water were applied I firmly believe such an option would have extended itself to a few more.

You may say otherwise but please tell me how your one visit stacks up against people who have made multiple visits. If memory serves you're the guy who told me that my opinion of courses -- like Rustic Canyon -- was really limited becayse of my lack of total rounds there when compared to others (e.g. you). ;)

DMoriarty

Re:Super Bashing?
« Reply #83 on: May 21, 2004, 01:32:43 AM »
Matt,

I was going to list out all of the things that annoy me about your posts, but most likely you would not have read it anyway.  

Are you really so rude and self-centered that you do not read the posts of those whose views you are questioning?

David:
. . .
You may say otherwise but please tell me how your one visit stacks up against people who have made multiple visits. If memory serves you're the guy who told me that my opinion of courses -- like Rustic Canyon -- was really limited becayse of my lack of total rounds there when compared to others (e.g. you). ;)

Matt, at least twice in this thread, I have stated that I have played Pinion Hills at least 15 times and probably more than 20.  

Let's see, you have played Rustic a total of . . . once?  As soon as you have played Rustic at least 14 more times perhaps we should revisit that discussion.

_________________


Lou, I'll go with Adam's term on this one . . . I think the design is more resorty than anything else, but more difficult than most resort courses because of the greens.  

If all a course needs is an open green front for you to characterize it as a ground game course, then with that one clarification you've just brought modern golf back to an age when almost every course had ample ground options.  
« Last Edit: May 21, 2004, 01:38:38 AM by DMoriarty »

Matt_Ward

Re:Super Bashing?
« Reply #84 on: May 22, 2004, 01:09:08 PM »
David:

If you have played Pinon Hills at least 15 times as you claim then your overall knowledge of the facility (re: ground game option) is completely out of whack with what my experiences have been at Pinon and the root cause that I previously stated (re: application of water through man's hand) in regards to the possibility of an expanded ground game option.

P.S. If I annoy you with my posts you might want to look in the mirror and realzie how others see your comments from time to time. All the best ...

Dave_Wilber

Re:Super Bashing?
« Reply #85 on: May 24, 2004, 11:05:22 PM »
 Interesting topic, this is!!! For the first time in I don't know how long...I just don't know what to say. :)
---------
Dave Wilber
Wilber Consulting--Coaching, Writing Broadcasting, Agronomy
davewilber@yahoo.com
twitter: @turfgrasszealot
instagram @turfgrasszeal
"No one goes to play the great courses we talk about here because they do a nice bowl of soup. Soup helps, but you can’t putt in it." --Wilber

Joel_Stewart

Re:Super Bashing?
« Reply #86 on: May 24, 2004, 11:09:52 PM »
Interesting topic, this is!!! For the first time in I don't know how long...I just don't know what to say. :)

Of all the people, Dave you could talk about supers all day long.  Start with the super at Richmond CC who couldn't read english and thought Round Up was a fertilizer.

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Super Bashing?
« Reply #87 on: May 25, 2004, 06:20:20 AM »
Joel Stewart,

Who hired him ?

Dave_Wilber

Re:Super Bashing?
« Reply #88 on: May 25, 2004, 11:22:27 AM »
Interesting topic, this is!!! For the first time in I don't know how long...I just don't know what to say. :)

Of all the people, Dave you could talk about supers all day long.  Start with the super at Richmond CC who couldn't read english and thought Round Up was a fertilizer.



Absolutely not true.
---------
Dave Wilber
Wilber Consulting--Coaching, Writing Broadcasting, Agronomy
davewilber@yahoo.com
twitter: @turfgrasszealot
instagram @turfgrasszeal
"No one goes to play the great courses we talk about here because they do a nice bowl of soup. Soup helps, but you can’t putt in it." --Wilber

Steve Okula

Re:Super Bashing?
« Reply #89 on: May 25, 2004, 06:15:17 PM »
Gentlemen,

I have been a golf course superintendent since 1980.

I have managed to eke out a living at it, not always easy.

I depend on my profession to support my family.

I have read your posts with interest and I have just one question:

Don't you people have lives? I mean, gee whiz, you fret over this stuff more than I do, and I need it to eat!

Regards,
Steve Okula CGCS
Golf de Joyenval
Chambourcy, France
The small wheel turns by the fire and rod,
the big wheel turns by the grace of God.

A_Clay_Man

Re:Super Bashing?
« Reply #90 on: May 25, 2004, 06:49:27 PM »
Steve- Ya know the last time someone told me to get a life? It was just after my first full year of golfing at Pacific Grove. At the monthly meeting, during the handicap chairman's report, he made reference to some guy who turned in 225 scores that year (me), and how he should get a life.  It took the only women in the group, room & club to stand-up and say how admirable it was that a golfer turned in all their scores (which is what I did). As sad as it may appear to you, this is my life, and I have chosen to waste it on golf. (so you can eat)

 Perspective is important with experience, so is the issue of playable, and the playability, of golf courses.

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