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Carlyle Rood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Redan update and thanks
« on: February 17, 2003, 04:51:18 PM »
With input from the GCA discussion group, I've collected 34 Redan candidates to research (thus far).

Special thanks to TEPaul, Biarritz, BillM, rhansen, Jim Sweeney, ChrisB, Chris_Clouser, John Lyon, chipoat, Shivas, Willie_Dow, J.J.S.E., and Hunt for their suggestions.

I'd love even more suggestions.  In lieu of making you endure a 3-page thread to see if yours has already been mentioned, I'll provide a summary here.

The candidates include:

Apache Stronghold #6
Bandit #6
Blue Heron Pines (West) #16
Camargo #15
CC of Charleston #11
CC of Fairfield #9
Charlotte Golf Links #16
Crystal Downs #3
Dornick Hills (?) #8
Fishers Island #2
Forsgate CC #?
Fox Chapel #6
Hidden Creek #4
Highpointe GC #4
Huntington Valley #3
Kingsley Club #16
Lehigh #3
Links GC #?
Lost Dunes #5
Merion (East) #3
Mid Ocean #17
NGLA #4
North Berwick #15
Old Town Club #15
Philadelphia CC #15
Philadelphia CC #7
Piping Rock #3
Preserve #6
Shinnecock #7
Shoreacres #14
Somerset Hills #2
St. Louis CC #16
Yale #13
Yeamans Hall #6

Please let me know of any others.  It will save me a lot of time if you include:

a. Club name
b. Hole number
c. City, state, country
d. Length (yds)
e. Architect
f. Reverse (yes/no)
g. URL or photo, if possible

Thanks,

Carlyle
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Tommy_Naccarato

Re: Redan update and thanks
« Reply #1 on: February 17, 2003, 05:03:58 PM »
Carlyle,
You forgot the modified Redan at Riviera #4. Even with Kikuyu, it is still fun to try to hook it in there.

Below is a picture of that hole from the tee. All 225+ yards of it. This isn't a GREAT hole. It is a FREEKIN' GREAT hole! (Sorry for the exhuberance.)

Hogan called it the best Par 3 in Game. etc. etc. etc.

Hopefully Mike Cirba can end this stupid writers block thing, come out of that blizzard and say a few words about it. You too Geoff Childs!

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Tommy_Naccarato

Re: Redan update and thanks
« Reply #2 on: February 17, 2003, 05:08:40 PM »
By the way, that Inca Pyramid you see in the back ground is, I'm guessing, just another form of symbolism guised as the 5th tee by Tom Marzlof. All to similar in ridicule to his Green Monkey bunker in Barbados.

It is ridiculous.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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A_Clay_Man

Re: Redan update and thanks
« Reply #3 on: February 17, 2003, 05:23:04 PM »
Carlye- I am happy to put my foot in it and state that while I am not sure if it qualifies there is Motha Fletcher of a par 3 at Lawsonia. I believe it's the fourth hole and it's in the neighborhood of 200 yards uphill and well bunkered. I'm sure our local badgers(or Pat Hitt) will weigh in and show me my error. If it qualifies it's in Greenlake Wisconsin built in the 20's by Langford possibly with moreau.

One other I know of is named redan and is in Myrtle Beach, for the love of god I can't recall the courses name and I'll just keep typing till it comes to me....I'll find the name and modify, promise.

 Heather Glen.

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:02 PM by -1 »
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mark studer

Re: Redan update and thanks
« Reply #4 on: February 17, 2003, 07:11:53 PM »
Carlyle- The 7th at Chicago Golf Club in Weaton Ill. 197 yard beauty.....when the  hole is in the back half of the putting green, you only see the top part of the  flag. Original course by CB Macdonald.  current redan...Seth Raynor. Right to left. I believe c.1921. Great Hole. Special Course.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Bruceski

Re: Redan update and thanks
« Reply #5 on: February 17, 2003, 08:11:22 PM »
Innocent question: could the 3rd at Bethpage Black be considered a redan?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Scott Wicker

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Redan update and thanks
« Reply #6 on: February 18, 2003, 06:17:19 AM »
#13 (originally #11) at Lookout Mountain Golf Club is a 196-yard Redan built by Raynor/Banks in 1925.

#7 at Black Creek Club is a Brian Silva designed 244-yard reverse redan (nader) that simply begs for the ground game.

They are both pictured in their respective profiles on this website.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Scott Wicker

ChipOat

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Redan update and thanks
« Reply #7 on: February 18, 2003, 07:36:26 AM »
Carlyle:

Don't believe you'll get much agreement that Merion #3 is a (reverse) Redan.  Other than a deep greenside bunker, the playing characteristics of Merion #3 are totally dissimilar to those of a Redan.

Also, did you decide that my nomination of #6 at The Creek was ineligible as that hole is a par 4?  It's a better Redan green complex than The Creek's "real" Redan (#8) IMO.

Bruce Strober:

#3 at Bethpage Black is a fine hole, but it doesn't have the playing characteristics of a Redan.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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George_Williams

Re: Redan update and thanks
« Reply #8 on: February 18, 2003, 07:46:38 AM »
Abilene CC
#14
Abilene, TX
190 Yds.
Arch.- George Williams (1992)
Reverse-No
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Tom Doak

Re: Redan update and thanks
« Reply #9 on: February 18, 2003, 08:10:59 AM »
Carlyle,

The Redan at Apache Stronghold is hole #14, not #6, although #6 is a bit like a 300-yard Redan.

Pacific Dunes #17 should also qualify.

I wouldn't include #3 at Crystal Downs.  Yes, the green tilts left to right, but it's not really a diagonal set up, and I've seldom seen anyone run the ball in there.  That would be like calling the Eden hole a reverse Redan.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Dan Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Redan update and thanks
« Reply #10 on: February 18, 2003, 08:27:29 AM »
Someone more qualified than I am will have to tell you whether this one "qualifies," but:

Somerset Country Club
No. 4
Mendota Heights, Minnesota, USA
185 yards
Seth Raynor (w/ later work by Geoffrey Cornish, Brian Silva)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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"There's no money in doing less." -- Joe Hancock, 11/25/2010
"Rankings are silly and subjective..." -- Tom Doak, 3/12/2016

Jeff Mingay

Re: Redan update and thanks
« Reply #11 on: February 18, 2003, 08:34:19 AM »
Carlyle,

Add the 4th hole at Toronto GC to your list. That hole, I believe, is Canada's only 'true' Redan hole - laid out by Harry Colt in 1912.

The 11th at Mountain Lake (Seth Raynor) in Lake Wales, Fla. comes to mind too. If I recall correctly, the par 4 3rd hole there, at Mountain Lake, also features a Redan green.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Matt_Cohn

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Redan update and thanks
« Reply #12 on: February 18, 2003, 10:05:05 AM »
Barona Creek #7? I don't think it is but lots of other people do apparently.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Steve Lapper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Redan update and thanks
« Reply #13 on: February 18, 2003, 10:56:50 AM »
Bethpage #17 and Quaker Ridge #9 are shining examples of quality Redan reverse style par 3's in the NY Metro area.

Both are tough left to right slanted greens that are diabolically diagonal to the tee and reap havoc on anything other than a high soft shot well placed.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:02 PM by -1 »
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The conventional view serves to protect us from the painful job of thinking."--John Kenneth Galbraith

Steve L.

Re: Redan update and thanks
« Reply #14 on: February 18, 2003, 11:24:03 AM »
One which hasn't been mentioned...

#7 - Slammer & Squire Golf Course at World Golf Village - St. Augustine, Florida...



« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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SPDB

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Redan update and thanks
« Reply #15 on: February 18, 2003, 04:52:25 PM »
#8 at The Creek
Yardage is not in front of me, but i think it is ~ 175
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Carlyle Rood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Redans
« Reply #16 on: February 18, 2003, 05:03:09 PM »
I haven't had an opportunity to review all the Redan candidates.  There seems to be a lot of disagreement over what constitutes a legitimate Redan.  I'm still forming my own opinion; but, I appreciate all the suggestions.

There may be some typos in my list above.  A few have been pointed out.  Please don't hesitate to point out mistakes.

Some of the holes have been featured on this site.  I like this site's photos because usually they're taken from ground level.  (I wish they were bigger, though.)  Professional photographers have a habit of taking misleading photos because they look neater.  That's sort of why I don't like flyovers that much.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Carlyle Rood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Redan update and thanks
« Reply #17 on: February 18, 2003, 05:18:30 PM »
Yep, I have Apache Stronghold as #14 in my database.  I had Pacific Dunes in there, but I didn't have a hole number.  I'll add it.

What do you suppose are the most common hole numbers thus far (before I add the above suggestions)?

Frequency - Hole number

5 times - No. 3
4 times - Nos. 4, 5, 15, and 16
None - No. 1, 10, 12, 18

How would you like to conclude a round with a Redan?  I certainly wouldn't want to start one with it.

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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ChipOat

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Redan update and thanks
« Reply #18 on: February 18, 2003, 07:24:35 PM »
slapper:

#17 at Bethpage Black a (reverse) Redan??  I respectfully disagree.

1) green not angled sufficiently
2) can't bounce it on from short left to back right
3) green doesn't slope consistently from LF to BR.
4) not set up for the ground game, at all.
5) front bunker isn't deep enough

Like Bruce Strober's #4 in a prior post, #17 is a fine golf hole, but it's not any kind of Redan - the playing characteristics are just too different.

BTW, despite all the Rees fuss on this DG, between Tillinghast and him, they've created one of my favorite courses in The Black.

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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herrstein

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Redan update and thanks
« Reply #19 on: February 19, 2003, 09:04:34 AM »
The 11th at Black Creek is a Redan.
Here's the 7th, the Reverse:
[/*img]http://homepage.mac.com/i/hpti/1/wimg/Shared/SlideShow/SlideShow.html[/img]
The 11th at Mountain Lake Club as well.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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herrstein

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Redan update and thanks
« Reply #20 on: February 19, 2003, 09:17:53 AM »
try that again:
[*img]http://homepage.mac.com/i/hpti/1/wimg/Shared/SlideShow/SlideShow.html[*/img]
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Perlee

Re: Redan update and thanks
« Reply #21 on: February 19, 2003, 01:08:11 PM »
Sleepy Hollow C.C.
Scarborough, NY
hole #7
reverse redan
C.B. Mac.
200 yds.

A fun hole that plays shorter than the yardage, downhill, and allows the ground approach to cozy up there.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Andy Silis

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Redan update and thanks
« Reply #22 on: February 19, 2003, 03:05:13 PM »
Great call Dan Kelly! In my opinion the 4th At Somerset in Mendota Heights, MN should be towards the top of your list as great examples of Redan holes. This one is perfect in almost every way.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Redan update and thanks
« Reply #23 on: February 19, 2003, 03:18:49 PM »
Another entry: a modern Redan is on the back nine at Southern Dunes south of Orlando (Steve Smyers) - I think it's #14.  A short hole, think I hit 6-iron maybe 160, slightly downhill, big swing right to left with a lot of movement and steep back to front as well as right to left.  That back nine is well worth a trip, with a Biarritz green on par 5 16th and great short par 4 15th.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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