Americans still don't get things-2004 version

[NAF]

I find myself fortunate enough to visit the UK 3-5 times a year and most of the time weasel golf into the equation.  This past March I played 3 rounds of 4somes at my UK home club, Deal which doesnt allow 3 or 4 ball play without permission from the club sec or in the late afternoon.

At Painswick two weeks ago, we all had some very enjoyable 4somes matches and played in about 2+ hours making for crisp fast rounds with forecaddies (our partners) able to aid in the round and great strategy available depending upon the partner's game.

So this past weekend we had our fourball tournament at my home course in New Jersey.  I didnt play but spent some time talking to several members about it after they had just finished the "Pinehurst" day of play.  I wondered if it would be better if they played Foursomes instead and asked if they would support a change..

Members were incredulous on how silly that would be with comments like, "I would only play half the shots" or " I wouldnt get to see the whole golf course"  or that sounds like a stupid game (stupid enough for the Ryder Cup).

Anyway, it just highlighted the differences for posterity in UK and US golf.

[Mike Hendren]

I didn't think I was stupid, but apparently I is.

Regards,

Mike

[TEPaul]

Noel:

For your info there was a raging debate in 1905 at the Lesley Cup that included some of the best players in America about what the proper format for the tournament should be. The debate went on for quite some time and got into articles and writing. Some thought the foursome format was appropriate as it was the original tradition in golf while others thought that was stupid (only half the shots by each player) and that it wasn't the most ideal test of a good player's game.

So ultimately it got so heated they decided to compromise and just play both---singles matches and foresome matches and thats why the Walker and Ryder Cups are the way they are!  

When it comes to golf in Europe and America and the differences the best thing to do is not to try to force either way completely---the best thing to do is to compromise. If one wants to see the best and most effective at compromise that way one should read C.B Macdonald's "Scotland's Gift Golf."

[TEPaul]

However, in an evolutionary sense there's no question at all that individual whole round golf rather than the alternate shot foursome format has pretty much dominated golf world-wide for a very long time now. Before any of our so-called golf purists on Golfclubatlas.com decide to get too high-handed about the old orginal foursme format, they should acknowledge there must be a very good reason for that fact. The beauty of golf is there are a number of alternative ways to play it which really are interesting---perhaps not too often but interesting nonetheless!

[A_Clay_Man]

Surely amongst 1500 of the most erudite people Gib comes across, we can touch on the reasons why, the majority of americans who play golf, don't get it.

Becasue "they" are not golfers? But just like any red-blooded want-it-all american, now wants golf to take less time, while lowering the cost. Sheesh, is it any wonder we are perceived as wanting to rule the world? Our egocentrism is showing, in our golf, and we can't seem to curtail the destiny we've manifested.

Solution? The country of Scotland should offer "real" golfers, some tax incentive, or other such carrots, to lure our arses over, not just for a visit, but for the healthcare.

[Dan Kelly]

In regard to the guy who doesn't like foursomes because he wants to play all of the shots:

My proposal:

Double Foursomes

Both players tee off on every hole -- then alternate shots on *both* balls.

Has this game ever been played -- outside of my mind?

It sounds like big fun to me -- in any case, but perhaps *especially* so if one member of each pair is considerably better than the other.

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

I actually do not get alternate shot. I have played it here and in a Ryder Cup format in Belgium. I can see how fun it would be with a close friend, or someone you enjoy playing with or to just enjoy the day. All in all it is not for me as a regular diet. I got a kick watching the group behind me at Rye playing that format and seeing two guy bolt off to wait on the tee shots and hit before the other guys ever got there was interesting. They would only slow down and talk at the green.

[THuckaby2]

Dan - what you suggest is played from time to time - I believe that's the strict rules of "Chapman" - keep switching golf balls.... you can do this until both are holed out, and record two scores, or you can use the better of the two at one point and record one.  I've never done it all the way through - ie constant switching - but I have played many times in what were called "modified chapman" formats and they are very fun.  You take the better of the two balls after either the first ones are switched and hit again, or after the 2nd shots are also hit and switched.

As for alternate shot, I absolutely LOVE IT and rounds in this format are among my most cherished golf memories.  Oh, like Tiger I wouldn't want to do it ALL the time, but I could see having a lot of fun playing this way often.  It's actually fun no matter what the golf skill of your partner.  If he is lesser skilled than you, then you get to play the hero all day saving him.  If he is more skilled than you, you get the benefit of his great shots.  If you are equal, you get to give each other crap and/or build each other up all day, and all of that is great fun!

I'm really into team golf, obviously.  I've played way too much golf relying on myself and I really welcome the change.  But I too am an outlier, in this respect at least!

TH

[ForkaB]

Hmmm, Tiger......And here I was wondering why you didn't show up for either foursomes game at Painswick....Great tactical move!

[A_Clay_Man]

Johnny B- The positive attributes to Alternate shot are found deep within our make-up. My ability to screw-up my own ball is understandable even forgiveable (by myself). But now, when I screw-up someone elses ball, I feel positively worse. The same is therfore on the other side of the coin and the winner is likely the team that worked best, together.

Fundamentally, it might be also understood along the courtesy lines. One should have the desire, NOT to have a negative impact on someone elses round, through their own action. This is major aspect of golf, that Americans clearly are not, and have not, been exposed to, until later in their education, if ever.

The AS format just highlights, or accentuates within the sport, these important canons.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

I think Americans just want to go out and "shoot a score." How many times do we hear when coming into the 19th hole, "What did you shoot?"
At my former club, we had 3 events in the November winter season- The Superintendant's Revenge, a scramble featuring such devices as a tractor in front of a green, a green with 3 flags but only 1 hole,etc.; a 4 club event requiring walking and a Cross Country event featuring holes devised from different locations than usual-1st tee to 18th green, 14th tee to 12th green,etc. Only the Cross Country event survived. If we had a nice day in November, members would rather "shoot a score" than try a different,fun format.
My wife and I won the couples event, Chapman format, because she took me to places that I've rarely been- the middle of the fairway. A fun format.

Steve

[JohnV]

Foursomes is alive and kicking in Western PA.  The Western PA Golf Association just held our 50th Fred Brand Foursomes Championship.  We had 48 teams play 36 holes in one day at Longue Vue.  Because we had so many teams enter last year, we created a second tournament called the Fred Brand Foursomes Century Championship for teams whose combined age is 100 or greater and had 22 teams in the inagural event held at Allegheny a week later.

For those who think they only get to play 1/2 the shots, they should play in a 36 hole event like ours.  We require the opposite player to tee off from #1 in the second round.  That way they get to try almost all the shots during the day.

Play moved really fast and everyone had a great time at these events.

I remember playing at Southerness and playing through an Eightsome on the 8th hole.  Even with four balls in play they still moved much faster than the usual fourball due to the guys forecaddieing and playing second shots very quickly.

[TEPaul]

We have a wonderful old traditional tournament around here annually on the first Wednesday of May called the Baily Cup. It's in honour of a man called Fredrick Baily who was killed by lightening on the course at Merion eons ago. It's been going on for about 75 years, it's some of the best camaraderie ever seen in golf and it's a full day's play of singles in the morning and foursome matches in the afternoon between Merion, HVGC, PVGC and GMGC.  In the morning you're playing three separate singles matches simultaneously and I can tell you with a guy as vague and stupid as I am just figuring out what to do against the others at any particular time or even where you stand against the others at any particular time is tough enough. But in the afternoon playing three separate foursome matches is what?---eight players out there on each hole as well as about four caddies. That's a ton of players all playing basically together and it feels more like a Hollywood star's entourage as anything else!

[Jason Mandel]

I caddied this weekend at Sunnybrook for their annual Member guest, the Silver Putter.  The entire tournament is foursomes.  

There was one round of flight qualyfying and then you played anywhere from 36-72 holes of all foursome play!  As a caddie, it certainly made things easier on me, and the pace of play which normally can be a problem in those types of events was non existent.  

I think everyone enjoyed it.  What really made things interesting is that the club "assigns" handicaps for each groups.  So lets just say for example one guy was a scratch and the other guy was a 16, the club arbitrarily decided how many strokes to give that group.  Most times they did not give enough, and it turned out the teams that did best were those that both teams were either fairly good, and not great, or one guy that was decent and another that was good.  A lot of strategy involved in picking a partner.

Jason

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

Rich, I can see how guilt by result might lead one to that conclusion. However, I made the Royal Porthcawl tee time before you set up the format. I am glad all in all that I got to play a team match and an individual. alternate shot at Painswick would be real fun though.

[Tom_Doak]

I've enjoyed alternate-shot golf in the past, but I must admit that it's been because of the people I was playing with.  It is a VERY difficult format to get into any rhythm of playing.

Maybe that's why I was 2-0 in the fourballs at Painswick, and 0-2 in the foursomes.  (Or maybe my partners could just carry me farther in the fourballs!)

[Joe Hancock]

Dan Lucas and I suck at alternate shot, but no more fun could be had whilst golfing.

Joe

[Sean Leary]

I play in a alternate shot tournament every year at Diablo CC in the Bay Area called the Diablo Scotch Club.  80 two man teams in 16 flights, each named after a famous Scottish Course,playing 5 9 hole matches each over two days, followed by the winners of each flight going on to a horserace to decide the overall winner.  Far and away the best tournament I have ever played in.  After 4 years of poor play, we made it to the horserace this year.  I played as well as I could play for two days until the first hole of the horserace, where under the pressure of 150 people watching, I semibladed a greenside bunker shot and nearly hit Roger Maltbie sitting in a cart behind the green ( he plays every year as well).....  

[ForkaB]

I play about 4-5 foursomes games a year, and that is about enough, for me.  However.....

Joe is right, the game is a complete hoot.  In fact, I'm going to post something now on that "Most fun you've ever had on a golf course thread" because I can think of at least 3 incidents that happened in one of my realtively rare games of foursomes.

[McCloskey]

Noel
I think we Americans get it more than you think , LOL
If playing half of the shots is so much fun, why don't you double your fun and don't play any of the shots.  You can just walk the course with your golf bag on your shoulder.  Then you can go into the bar and tell everyone what a great "pure" time was had on the course.  
Foursomes may work in a special event, ie Ryder Cup, but a regular dose would be  a complete waste of valuable time, imho.
Cheers!

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