Mike B,
That is an interesting observation, and I agree. I might add/emphasize that the difference in grass height between fairway and green is also crucial.
We had experience with this at Rustic, when for a while the course was plenty firm but the collars were being maintained slightly higher than usual. Running the ball through the collar became much more difficult, as it was extremely hard to reconcile the slower speed of the collar with the faster speed of the greens.
As for whether the ground game as you understand it is completely foreign to me, I dont think so, but perhaps that is not for me to say. I can tell you that at my home course I regularly try to bounce my ball onto the green from various points off the putting surface on around 14 of the 18 holes, depending on the conditions, my position, and the pin. Does this qualify me to speak about the ground game?
In contrast, at a course like Pacific Dunes one can play the ground game even in and after hard rain, possibly because the greens have the same grass type and there is little difference between the height of the greens and fairways.
This is one reason why I think that Mike Hendren's suggestion, that natural courses ought not to have extended collars, is a mistake. The ground game just becomes too difficult if there is a vast difference between the approach area and the green.
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Lou Said:
Tiered greens no more than heavily contoured surfaces common in the "Golden Age" period preclude the ground game approach.
I am not sure how to read this, except as an over-generalized and unsupported slap at classic era courses. I And here I thought we were discussing Pinion. Perhaps you should start a new thread and expound on this interesting position.
But back to the topic at hand . . . Surely you agree that, for the most part, the greens at Pinion are ill-suited for ground attack? (You've played Pinion, havent you?)
Do the greens at Black Mesa or the Rawls Course inhibit the ground game? If not, those at Pinion Hills wouldn't either.
I find this an odd position, and I am not sure I understand the underlying logic. In the photographs Ran posted of Black Mesa, I dont see any greens multiple tiers connected by formal, steep slopes. Nor do I see any of the Mickey Mouse ear tiers which are so common at Pinion, nor do I see any tiers which are not directly reachable on the ground, either by their position relative to the line of play, or by feeding contours in the greens.
So perhaps you can explain your conclusion?
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Adam, Mike's point above is one reason I have trouble with your analysis. It seems evident that the rough extends right to the 3 foot collar at Pinion. It is asking alot to expect golfers to intentionally try to bounce it through rough and onto a fast green while still controlling their distance. But maybe I am just not enough of a free thinker on the course.
As for Old No. 14, again you pick a hole I very much enjoy. I I find this hole to have a very similar feel to Old 6, discussed above. Perhaps it is because these are two of the only holes where one has a sense that a missed shot will result in a ball making it to the native. Both these green complexes fit wellwith the landscape and dont rely completely on grass mounds and grass bunkers for their character.
That being said, I cannot imagine trying to run the ball back to the right corner, but I dont remember the actual green surface too well so I'll take your word that this is possible. Is the back right level above or below the other tiers? I dont remember.
In general though, these two holes may well be the exceptions that prove the rule. They are out of character with most of the rest of the green sites (with the possible exception of the par 3 with all the tees. They both have a side where the green complex feels convex, rather than concave.
As for you preference to play old No 14 out of the rough, off the upslope of one of the mounds . . . to each his own. I hardly think that Mr. Dye would have imagined that this would be the ideal route. There is a hole at my home course which requires a somewhat similar second shot and I too prefer to hit off the upslope so as to launch the ball (this time to a back left area) but the course has a small swale which runs through the fairway so I can do so from the fairway, provided I hit an accurate distance from the tee.
I asked about when you play because I often play very early in the morning and we inevitably are whining about how wet the course is, and cursing them for having any water on. On days I have gone out for a second round it has sometimes been startling how dry it had become. Perhaps pinion doesnt drain well? (a question, not an accusation)
Adam, let me clarify again. I am not opining whether PH is currently being maintained properly. I have now idea. I am just questioning whether the course was designed with extensive use of the ground game in mind.