Red Phone call from the lads in the UK

[Philip Gawith]

The story of why that eccentrically shaped 17th green was moved is quite amusing. According to the locals, because it was blind, there used to be an amazingly high portion of holes in one because the caddies just used to kick the ball into the hole. So much so that the stage was reached whereby a hole in one on that hole was no longer recognised!

I am sure Craig will correct me if I am wrong, and that may not have been the only factor in moving the green, but certainly it was A factor...

[ForkaB]

Sean

I have heard the same story (very probably on this site) re: the Dell hole at Lahinch.  It's one of those apochryphal one-liners such as "The hardest shot at __________ is the 2nd shot at the (par-3) ______nd/th."

Vis a vis the water tower, I was also told that 2 years after it was built, they found a natural spring near Dungeness and so the tower became redundant.

Vis a vis the Luytens house, surely that "Victorian" green that Craig has showed us must have jarred his sensitivities?  Or, just maybe, the clean geometric lines of that green might have pleased him, perhaps greatly.  That house was as geometric as the worst GCA of Dunne or Bendelow or even early Park Jr. (by some interpretations of some accounts....).  One thing it was not was particularly consonant with its surroundings.  Maybe Luytens just had a bad hair day.........

[ForkaB]

Sean

As you are hirsutely challenged, I am not surprised that this reference escapes you.  See below for a relevant snippet.

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=bad+hair+day

[Philip Gawith]

As someone who has stayed inside that house, I think I must spring to Luytens defence! All I can say - while not denying that it is not consonant with its surroundings - is that it looks better from the front than from the golf course!

Given that most pre-eminent UK links courses are blessed with superior views of the local caravan park, I think I will take Luytens over them.

[ForkaB]

Philip

Somebody should start a "Greatest golf courses with views over caravan parks" thread.   I'll open with Dornoch and Troon, but I know there are more.......

[Mike_Sweeney]

Philip

Somebody should start a "Greatest golf courses with views over caravan parks" thread.   I'll open with Dornoch and Troon, but I know there are more.......

Rich,

Enniscrone's #18 finishes up with a fine view of the adjacent caravan park.

PS. More pictures from this outing please.

[Craig Disher]

The Lutyens origins of Hopper's house is also apocryphal, I think. I don't know where the story began but I've heard it from many members and local residents - even the previous owner. In fact, the house was designed by Sir Clough Williams-Ellis, designer of the village of Portmeirion, Wales (locale for filming The Prisoner in the 60s).

That takes Lutyens off the hook for any design failure. I was guilty for years of cursing him for designing the British Embassy in DC - a blockish thing that is almost a blight on the avenue. In fact, he designed the Ambassador's residence - which was used as the Embassy for a time. It's a gracious building and, Edward, I apoligize.

[T_MacWood]

Craig
Thanks for the photo of the bizarrre 17th...hopefully one of these days Rich will come to grips with the concept of Victorian (i.e. Dark ages) golf architecture. That hole was redesigned by Alister MacKenzie.

[Bill_McBride]

The Craighead course at Crail has a particularly nifty caravan park next door with a cliff top location.  With the gorse in full bloom it looked rather inviting!

[Philip Gawith]

Isn't Dornoch the winner Rich on account of separate caravan views from both the 8th and the 16th, or am I hallucinating about the latter?

[ed_getka]

Just to clarify, is a caravan park an RV park or a trailer park?

[ForkaB]

Philip

You were not hallucinating.  And, if you are tall and can jump high you might just be able to see one (or even two) other caravan parks to the left of the 8th medal tee!

Ed

Sean speaks with unforked tongue.  Caravan parks are an integral part of the European social scene.  I myself will be vacationing en famille in France in July in a luxurious 9.37 metre double-wide.  Far more chic than any run-of-the-mill 5* hotel.

Tom MacW

Craig was playing a trick on us.  That was actually a photo of the grounds of the Littlestone Double-H Lawn Bowling Society.  I think that Hedda Hopper and Horace Hutchinson were charter members.

[T_MacWood]

Rich
In addition, each spring they would errect a tent at this site for one the great Victorian tradtions....the Kent Grand Ball. This is where the term the dance floor originated. Laidlaw Purves cut a mean rug.

That is my history lesson for the day.

[ed_getka]

Sean,
   FYI, what you are describing is what we would call an RV park over here (recreational vehicle). Trailer parks are permanent residences.

Rich,
  It must cost a fortune to schlep one of those things around with the cost of gas over there.

Didn't anyone play Rye while in the area? Rye along with Prestwick are two of the courses I most want to see on my next trip.

[ForkaB]

Ed

Gas/petrol is only a fraction of the total cost of running a car--even when it costs $6/gallon!  Repairs and depreciation are far larger elements of cost, and, as you should know, Toyotas are indestructible, so I shall schelp my beast around for as long as it is to my heart's content.

PS--as mentioned above, Rye may be one of the venues for next year's Budapest Cup.

[Andy Levett]

Funny how trailer parks are  generally called ‘mobile homes’ in the UK, despite being  rarely either  mobile or homes. Great for holidays though – we’ve just booked one, owned by the golf club, at Perranporth for the October school break (there is heating )   Not every links offers views of caravans though – nuclear power plants are almost as common, wind farms are coming up on the rails, there’s steelworks, flour mills, from some you can even see the sea.

What do folk think about the 2nd at Littlestone? For those who missed the trip, it’s a 400 yard par 4 with the green partially hidden by a dune running across in front of the green. It used to be completely blind but a few years ago the club cut a gap in the middle of the dune so the flag is visible if you drive to the collect portion  of the fairway. Besides visibility, the shot from position A gives more room to land your ball without getting stuck on the hill in front or running through the back.
I enjoyed the challenge of trying to find the correct part of the fairway – which varies depending on where the hole  is cut - and then enjoyed the almost inevitable blind shot that followed an inaccurate teeshot. But… it’s not what  MacKenzie envisaged.

 

[Craig Disher]

Thinking back to the pre-Mac/Abercrombie routing, there were a lot of blind shots at Littlestone - 2, 3, 10, 12, 13, 16, and 17. Nearly all have been removed but none as unfortunately as #2. The gap in the dune looks like a road cut and although it does create interesting angles of approach depending on the hole location, I think it would be a better hole if the dune were put back in some form.

A blind shot to the green early in the round (Rye has one at 13) would be a nice, quirky diversion and serve as a reminder of the original Purves design.

The low ridge before the dune is immediately behind a deep ditch. The ditch is a little less than 150 yards from the green. Prevailing wind is with the golfer. The ball just to the left of the 2nd bunker was in perfect position that day.

[ForkaB]

I liked the hole, even though the cut in the ridge looked a little contrived.  Without the cut the hole would be a bear for the shorter hitter, and without the visual clue, getting the length right would be difficult for the longer player, probably leading to lost balls through the green.  I think the different look based on the angle of approach is a neat feature.

[Craig Disher]

Even with the opening, there are plenty of lost balls on the hole usually caused by the shot hanging up in the rough on the far side of the dune - balls are seldom lost long, left or right of the green. Lost balls could be reduced easily by cutting down the grass a bit. Driving over the dune on the 3rd into a stiff NE wind created the same problem and that grass was cut down to semi-rough length.

Shorter hitters can always lay up short of the ditch, leaving 150 yards in, or carry the ditch to the 30-yard-wide open space before the dune.

Anyway, restoring the dune in some form would make the hole harder for the members so I doubt if it will ever be done. I also recall someone saying that when the opening was cut in the 80s, it was in response to the first time Littlestone was used as an Open qualifying venue. Blind shots to the green weren't acceptable.

[Andy Levett]

Craig
The history section of the club's website says, referring to MacKenzie, "his intentions for the second hole were completed in 1970". Does that mean it was his idea to make the cut in the dune?

[T_MacWood]

According to an article written by Darwin shortly after MacKenzie redesigned the course, the biggest changes came on these holes:

4-he created a gap in the crossbunker
5-he moved the green to the right on to a plateau
6-he created a new par-3, with a new green surrounded by bunkers
8-replaced the blind green; he moved the green to the right where it would be visible (Darwin regretted this change).
16-replaced the blind green, he described the new green of being in the shape of gully built into the side of a hill (he preferred the new hole, although he liked the old hole).
17-moved green from behind the dune (Darwin liked the new green, although he thought it was a little too small and boldly contoured when the wind blew)
18-the new hole was a big imporvment over "one of the worst, longest and dullest holes in Europe". Although he did comment that the new green had a slightly plasticine appearance, clearly the work of MacKenzie as opposed to Providence, he thought perhaps time would remedy that. I wonder if Darwin's observation have anything to do with MacKenzie's comments in the Spirit of St. Andrews about the dangers of using plasticine models?

There was no mention of the second hole. If MacKenzie did plan on cutting a gap through the dune, I wonder why it wasn't done while he was making all the other changes. And if that was his plan, I suspect his gap would have looked a little less geometric/symmetrical.

[Craig Disher]

From the LGC history:

8th September 1923 - Dr. A. MacKenzie's recommendations 'adopted with exception of 2nd, 3rd and 12th holes.'  

Later on the book says that "the cutting of the gap at the 2nd was first recommended by Dr. A. MacKenzie in 1922 and was debated for 50 years before it was done."

Apparently he planned a cut in the dune at 2 but I don't think he would have been happy with the way it was executed.

Tom - where did you find the Darwin article?

[T_MacWood]

Craig
The article comes from The Times (7/22/24). There was formal opening event, which included R. Wethered, C. Tolley, D. Herd, Holderness among others.

[Craig Disher]

Tom,
Thanks for the cite. "Mostly Golf" includes a humorous essay Darwin wrote about a scorecard he found - incomplete - that leads him to speculate about how the player could have achieved such outrageous scores. The holes he describes are certainly Littlestone's.