Best Candidates for Restoration

[TEPaul]

"Hollywood would be unplayable to its membership if it were restored. But, I would have loved to have played it.
I'm curious about comparisons in difficulty to Pine Valley."

Pat:

I'm curious about the comparisons of Hollywood to PVGC too. What's that about? Who said that? You say the course would be unplayable to its membership if restored but you would love to have played it the way it once was. What's that about? What's wrong with the members of Hollywood? Would they be unable to play PVGC too? It's always been a curiosity with PVGC that although it wasn't desgined for high handicap golfers they've always seemed to love to play the course. Why do you suppose that is and why would it be different with Hollywood?

[TEPaul]

If Travis was in some way inspired by PVGC when he did (or redid) Hollywood it certainly would make sense since it appears he did Hollywood in 1915 simultaneous to the time he says he spent so many sleepless nights developing a plan (design) for PVGC to make it play reversible!!

It seems to me that architects who dabble in or created plans to make for a reversible golf course just may be some of the most imaginative architects ever. Those that tried it that I know of were Travis, Flynn and possibly the most imaginative of them all George Thomas!

[Lester George]

Chris,

I am the architect for Westhampton, the contractor is not yet selected.

Lester

[G_Tiska]

The Bridge

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tom MacWood,

Your previous comments on Hollywood were primarily based upon your viewing two aerial photos, hardly a complete and credible treatise.

I asked you about the 14th hole
Could you expand on the changes Rees made to that hole

TEPaul,

If you look at the broad base of golfers and derivatives that comprise today's membership at Hollywood, including regular members, spouses, juniors and seniors, they would be incapable of negotiating the golf course in its form as presented in early aerials.

Do you think that the broad spectrum of your membership at GMCC could successfully negotiate Pine Valley on a daily basis ?  Old Marsh ? GCGC

Certain golf courses aren't for the broad spectrum of golfers that comprise the typical memberships of local golf courses, and I think the old Hollywood was one of them.

[TEPaul]

"Do you think that the broad spectrum of your membership at GMCC could successfully negotiate Pine Valley on a daily basis?"

Pat:

No I don't. It's not my supposition either as GMGC has a ton of members who also belong to PVGC and most all say the courses are two very different things to them. But GMGC was not begun or designed as a course like PVGC and the members of both PVGC (and GMGC) back then and today obviously understand that. If Hollywood really was comparable to PVGC in difficulty what happened to the membership of Hollywood over time? PVGC is as difficult as it ever was and its membership certainly has not reacted to it the way you say Hollywood's has.  

[T_MacWood]

Pat
Rees's expansion of the 14th green is brilliant; it is his treatment of the remainder of the course I'm not crazy about.

What was Travis's mission statement when he took on the Holywood project?

[TEPaul]

"Pat
Rees's expansion of the 14th green is brilliant; it is his treatment of the remainder of the course I'm not crazy about.
What was Travis's mission statement when he took on the Holywood project?"

Tom MacW:

Interesting post. You're going to throw Pat completely off his stride there by saying something so positive about Rees followed by complete damnation!

Obviously, Travis's mission statement in 1915 was to turn Hollywood into a golf course of the supreme difficulty of PVGC to such a degree that the membership would inevitably freak out and hire a number of architects to completely dumb it down over the ensuing decades. Pretty unique plan, wouldn't you say?

[david h. carroll]

Annapolis Roads Golf Club....Charles Banks 9 holer with the skeleton fully intact.

[tlavin]

My vote is for Olympia Fields South Course.  I just happen to have a memorandum in my hand from a certain Tom Doak, from May, 1989 that details what he would do to bring the South up on a par to the North Course.  We finally have the money.  Tom, do you have the time???

[GeoffreyC]

The Knoll - Charles Banks work in NJ- I wish they would let George Bahto put everything back.

The front nine at Yeamans Hall- I looked at the bunkering from the drawing in the locker room and it would be great.  As it is now its a real let down. (sorry Ran   )

Timber Point - as others mentioned this was a masterpiece- It would stand today as one of the greatest courses in the US.

Cog Hill #4 - I was so impressed with the bones of this course.  Please chop down a few thousand trees and restore the original strategies.

Oh yeah- I forgot a little Raynor course in New Haven, CT. That's #1 on my list to restore.

[Patrick_Mucci]

TEPaul,

PV and Hollywood took different paths.

PV continued to be for championship golfers, regionally, nationally and internationally, not for the broad cross section of members that populate a local club.  And as such, Hollywood became too difficult for the emerging membership, and that's why they made SUBSTANTIVE changes to the golf course over the years, always making it easier, vis a vis, bunker removal.

If PV had Woodcrest's membership, or any other local clubs membership, you can't think that it would be intact today, as it was 80 years ago.

I'm hoping that you understand the dynamic in the differences in the emerging memberships and the useage of the clubs as they evolved.

Tom MacWood,

Isn't your concession on classifying the quality of Rees's work on # 14, as brilliant, in direct conflict with your claim that the changes made to Hollywood by Rees are horrendous ?

How do you reconcile these conflicting statements ?

Perhaps you shouldn't make such broad based judgements until you've actually seen what exists both pre and post project work.


Geoff Childs,

How could I have overlooked The Knoll.

And, I don't think it needs much in the way of restoration work.

It's a wonderful golf course that few if any outside of the Northern New Jersey area have ever heard of, let alone played.

Had ownership transitioned to the members and not a college and a municipality, there's no telling how could the golf course could be.

For its architecture, its diverse features, it shouldn't be missed.

George Bahto,

How about hosting my winter-spring 2006 GCA.com get together at The Knoll ?

[Dan_Belden]

Scioto in Columbus,Ohio.  Restore it to when Jones won the open in the 20s.  Of all the courses mentioned I think this one is quite worthy with its history.  There should be good documentation as well.  
  I think it is Mill Creek in Youngstown, with its two Donald Ross courses that would be great a well.  

[T_MacWood]

Pat
A blind squirrel finds an acorn once in a while.

What was Travis's mission statement at Hollywood?

Hollywood was the host of championships and exhibitions of national and international stature for about the first twenty years of its existance...not only did the course have a national reputation, it was famous internationally as well.

The turning point came during the Depression when Tillinghast convinced the club during his famous tour that the bunkering was a wasteful extravagance as well as a design flaw...I believe at that point the club's brainchild (the gentleman's name escapes right now) was gone. I don't believe it had anything to do with the members feeling the course was too difficult.

During their coast to coast year long tour of America in 1920, Ted Ray and Harry Vardon stated Hollywood the second best course they saw in the States (I'm not certain who number one was). Cecil Leitch, the British ladies champion, made similar comments. The club hosted all sorts of events, Ladies events, championships for men, collegiate events...the course was very flexible...it could be stretched from 6000 yards to the unheard of distance of 7000 yards. In that way if differs from PV and NGLA...but after all Deal is a resort area and the course was set up to attract and accomidate summering visitors. I imagine it was also a second club for many golfers...like PV and NGLA.

I doubt the current members know their golf course was once considered in the same class as PV and NGLA.

[TEPaul]

There it is folks--A.W. Tillinghast defangs another great golf course of it's challenginng bunkers around the same time he creates one of the most challenging designs in the nation. The man must have been schizo or really into his flask or just into selling out his architectural prinicples to any client who he came in contact with! Hollywood is altered and the membership didn't even want it to be? That's a new one in club administration!

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tom MacWood,

Well, you're wrong again, about Hollywood.

Obviously, members who've joined recently aren't keenly aware of the club's past, however, some of the old timers were extremely familiar with what took place.

And IT WASN"T Tillinghast who was responsible for removing most of the bunkers, it was a member and a green chairman.

Get your facts straight.

[T_MacWood]

I'm glad to hear the members are keenly aware of the club's past...I hope these aren't the same guys who aren't aware of Tillinghast's recommendations.

[Sven Nilsen]

An interesting thread from almost 20 years ago.


How many of these ideas actually came to fruition during that time?

[Matthew Rose]

Oak Hill - yes
Oakland Hills - yes
Inverness - yes
Scioto - yes
Cherry Hills - yes
Yale - pending

Cog Hill #4 - was this before or after Rees got a hold of it?
Lido - technically yes?
Commonwealth - ongoing?

[MCirba]

It's fair to say that Hollywood has been restored to its former self.

[Steve Lapper]

It's fair to say that Hollywood has been restored to its former self.

And apparently someone was very wrong in their statement:


 "Hollywood would be unplayable to its membership if it were restored"


  Membership LOVES the current form! A few are miffed by parts of the new 17th, but all-in-all, the membership remains elated!

[Buck Wolter]

Here in Oklahoma:  Dornick Hills

Elsewhere:  Riviera (Poor George)

Augusta?

Dornick Hills --Check

[Chris Clouser]

Tom Doak,


Thanks again for your work at Dornick. 

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

Not going to happen but restoring ANGC to the look on the video game would be rather nice.
I think there are some holes at Sunningdale could benefit from going back to a more original look, but that really would be just me being selfish.
Wentworth for 100% certainty.
Alot of the London Heathbelt courses are doing some wonderful restorative work, New Zealand club has certainly benefitted from recent work as are the early pictures from Addington

[JMEvensky]

I'd like to hear each architect participating name his best candidate for renovation.