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CjM111

Re: Best Candidates for Restoration
« Reply #25 on: February 19, 2003, 04:36:42 PM »
I remember when Bethpage was run down worn out and overplayed.  I think the same has happened to a golf course owned by the City of Philadelphia, Cobbs Creek.  It is a Hugh Wilson design (who, as you know, finished the four holes at Pine Valley after George Crump's death.  It has a very good routing.  I had the pleasure of working on a couple of projects there several years ago and met an older gentleman who played there way back in the late 30's and early 40's  (that's years, not his age).  He told me that the golf course had been changed in 1942 or so, when the government needed some land adjacent.  Evidently there were a couple of holes that were changed, and now I think a driving range takes up part of those original holes.

It has the same creek that wanders through Merion and if the City could ever find their way financially, I think that Cobbs Creek could be the next Bethpage.

Until just a few years ago, my first choice would have been Holston Hills CC, a Donald Ross design from 1925, however, the members there made a decision to return it to the original state and while I have not been back to play it, I understand that the renovation on it was extremely well done and received.  I played all my early golf there and always loved Ross' work.

If you make it to Philly, go by Cobbs Creek and see if they will let you take a walk.  It has a lot of character...and there's a pretty good cheese steak place right around the corner.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:02 PM by -1 »

Jeff Mingay

Re: Best Candidates for Restoration
« Reply #26 on: February 19, 2003, 04:45:40 PM »
Up here in Canada, our two Colt courses are the most obvious candidates for restoration, in my eyes: Toronto and Hamilton.

Shortly after Toronto opened for play in 1912, noted British golf writer Henry Leach visited. He returned to England and wrote of Toronto: 'As on many of the Colt courses, there is something of a Sunningdale look about the holes.'

There's nothing of a Sunningdale look about the holes there these days. Yet another once unique victim of 'standardisation.'
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Jeff Mingay

Re: Best Candidates for Restoration
« Reply #27 on: February 19, 2003, 04:49:15 PM »
Tom Doak,

How about High Pointe? Seriously.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Lynn Shackelford

Re: Best Candidates for Restoration
« Reply #28 on: February 19, 2003, 04:54:28 PM »
In the interest of public golf there are so many old inner city muny's.  It is a shame there is no interest from USGA, PGA or local golf institutions to do this.
My two to start with are:
North Fulton, Atlanta
Cobb's Creek, Philly
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

ian

Re: Best Candidates for Restoration
« Reply #29 on: February 19, 2003, 05:13:57 PM »
On the fantasy end (since it won't happen), blow up 9 lousy Bill Robinson holes and return Banff Springs back to its original routing. I'm certain that there is enough photos to repair any and all the damage by previous architects too.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Jeff Mingay

Re: Best Candidates for Restoration
« Reply #30 on: February 19, 2003, 07:16:44 PM »
Great suggestion, Ian. Starting on Thompson's 5th hole, ending at the 4th, has affected Banff terribly.

Banff's original sequence of holes presents one of the 'smoothest' rounds of golf in the world. From that fabulous start, where you drive down into the river valley, in the shadow of the stunning Banff Springs Hotel, then head straight out (well, almost staright out) before turning for home at the 12th. And, of course, those last few holes, beginning at the 15th, where the hotel comes back into view. Wow! Gaining on the hotel over those last four holes in is a remarkable climax to hte round; somewhat reminiscent of the trek in at St. Andrews, but not really  ;)

Restore Thompson's orignal sequence of holes at Banff: I agree. And, I wouldn't miss those Robinson holes either.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Tommy_Naccarato

Re: Best Candidates for Restoration
« Reply #31 on: February 19, 2003, 09:15:42 PM »
I'm going to go light here and sy the following PUBLIC ACCESS courses. This way I don't ruffle any feathers.

1-Griffith Park/Los Angeles Municiple Courses--Wilson and Harding (as seen in George C. Thomas' "Golf Architecture in America")

2-Sharp Park-Just Southwest of Olympic Club


3-Eastmoreland Golf Club in Portland, which as some of you will no doubt attest is probably one of the great muni layouts in this country. But first, one has to drop kick John Zoellar (preferebly in the head) out of as City of Portland Director of Golf. He has been dying to redesign this course for years, ala Red Hook/Progress Downs.

4-Coronado Muni-San Diego- An absolute charming site with a very medicore golf course. I wish one of my "BIASED" favorites would REDESIGN this one.

There are more, many more.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Jim Nagle

Re: Best Candidates for Restoration
« Reply #32 on: February 20, 2003, 11:30:06 AM »
William Flynn's Indian Creek from the late 20's.  The photo's reveal some of the most gnarley, natural sand bunkers and features.  Of course that was before all the housing started.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Nick_Ficorelli

Re: Best Candidates for Restoration
« Reply #33 on: February 20, 2003, 01:40:54 PM »
University of Michigan....and no parking
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

hoggmeister

Re: Best Candidates for Restoration
« Reply #34 on: February 20, 2003, 05:03:19 PM »
Yale--and soon.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

A_Clay_Man

Re: Best Candidates for Restoration
« Reply #35 on: November 09, 2004, 04:11:34 PM »

3-Eastmoreland Golf Club in Portland, which as some of you will no doubt attest is probably one of the great muni layouts in this country. But first, one has to drop kick John Zoellar (preferebly in the head) out of as City of Portland Director of Golf. He has been dying to redesign this course for years, ala Red Hook/Progress Downs.


Whoever this guy Zoeller is, perhaps he should read a litlle on the subject of Willows. Dr.Klein has some opinion of them, as I recall.


Eric_Dorsey

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Best Candidates for Restoration
« Reply #36 on: November 09, 2004, 04:39:51 PM »
I agree with Tommy N.  

1)  Sharp Park
2)  Griffith park
3)  Waveland (Des Moines, IA)
4)  Cobbs Creek - from what I hear only, this sounds very intrigueing.


Tom, if your going to donate your awesome talent, bring it to the masses so we can get a taste.


blasbe1

Re:Best Candidates for Restoration
« Reply #37 on: November 09, 2004, 04:53:33 PM »
Timber Point, for gain in quality and potential.

I don't know of another course (that still exists) that has fallen so far from its once greatness that is more deserving of restoration.  Since it's public access most everyone would then be able to experience something truly special.

   

Tyler Kearns

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Best Candidates for Restoration
« Reply #38 on: November 09, 2004, 05:10:56 PM »
Tree removal at Pasatiempo!! Of course that would mean repealing some legal avenues that allow anybody to sue for anything.  :(  

Perhaps just a judicial removal is all that is possible.

Tyler Kearns

Mike Benham

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Best Candidates for Restoration
« Reply #39 on: November 09, 2004, 05:17:32 PM »

3-Eastmoreland Golf Club in Portland, which as some of you will no doubt attest is probably one of the great muni layouts in this country. But first, one has to drop kick John Zoellar (preferebly in the head) out of as City of Portland Director of Golf. He has been dying to redesign this course for years, ala Red Hook/Progress Downs.


Whoever this guy Zoeller is, perhaps he should read a litlle on the subject of Willows. Dr.Klein has some opinion of them, as I recall.


Adam - Is this the same John Zoeller who was the past Director of the NCGA ????
« Last Edit: November 09, 2004, 05:17:52 PM by Mike Benham »
"... and I liked the guy ..."

Sam Sikes

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Best Candidates for Restoration
« Reply #40 on: November 09, 2004, 05:42:06 PM »
Scioto, without a doubt, if it has not already been done.  to my knowledge it hasn't.

Shoal Creek, though im not sure the question is totally applicable.  WAAAAY to many trees around the tees.

Mobile Country Club
CCV Westhampton
Birmingham West, though i like it the way it is
Rockaway Hunting
Oakland Hills


Jeff_Mingay

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Best Candidates for Restoration
« Reply #41 on: November 09, 2004, 05:45:32 PM »
Which Oakland Hills, Sam? Ross' or Trent Jones'?

Keeping in mind, RTJ's Oakland Hills is much older than Ross' lived to be!
jeffmingay.com

A_Clay_Man

Re:Best Candidates for Restoration
« Reply #42 on: November 09, 2004, 05:59:56 PM »
Mike- I'm not sure who he is, as my post states. Do you know?

Al I know is, I was recently there. Underneath the maintenance, and the ill conceived changes, there's a Forest under all those trees. Under the Forest... There's a pretty good golf course.


T_MacWood

Re:Best Candidates for Restoration
« Reply #43 on: November 09, 2004, 07:06:32 PM »
Hollywood.

The brilliance of this course still shines through despite the mediocre work of Rees Jones (and mediocre is putting it kindlly). Just think how special this course could be if it were accurately restored--the club is sitting on an absolutely unreal golf course.

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Best Candidates for Restoration
« Reply #44 on: November 09, 2004, 10:30:33 PM »
Tom,

Has Palmetto gone ahead with their restoration project as detailed in your letter to Dr. Crain a year ago?If so is your firm involved?Thanks
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Paul Richards

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Best Candidates for Restoration
« Reply #45 on: November 09, 2004, 10:40:52 PM »
redanman:

Gawd!  That is awful!!!!

 :-[ :P
"Something has to change, otherwise the never-ending arms race that benefits only a few manufacturers will continue to lead to longer courses, narrower fairways, smaller greens, more rough, more expensive rounds, and other mechanisms that will leave golf's future in doubt." -  TFOG

Mike_Clayton

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Best Candidates for Restoration
« Reply #46 on: November 10, 2004, 06:00:51 AM »
The Australian - pre 1977
Commonwealth.- pre 1988

Both were easily top 7 in Australia but today there are only a few outside of the membership who would rank them inside the top 15.



JohnV

Re: Best Candidates for Restoration
« Reply #47 on: November 10, 2004, 08:17:13 AM »
Adam - Is this the same John Zoeller who was the past Director of the NCGA ????

No, it is his son.  John Jr is the city of Portland's Directof of Golf.

A_Clay_Man

Re:Best Candidates for Restoration
« Reply #48 on: November 10, 2004, 08:46:56 AM »
It was an interesting day at Eastmoreland. First, I had arrange a tee time, then learned that someone had just written a letter in the Portland paper, stating that in their many years of golfing the portland muni courses, the author had never seen condiotions as bad as they were at Eastmoreland.

I was fixed on seeing another Egan design, and felt I could place the conditions out of my mind and evaluate the design.

Well, it must've been a full week since that letter appeared in the paper and the entire place was a buzz, full of maintenance workers, top-dressing, what seemed like the entire golf course. The greens were a little sluggish with evidence of what I assume are either thatch problems, or Nematodes, but still very playable.

The tree encroachment is only accentuated by a standard rough presentation. SO, if one is to be errant, into the trees, they are further penalized by having thick lush 4-5" rough to not only deal with, but also the added difficulty of finding one's ball.

Underneath, eastmoreland is great example of variety and thoughtful design. The walk near the Rhododendron gardens reminded me of other inner-city courses, with the juxtaposition of spaces.

Once again, I was floored by the final one-shotter, over the water to an almost Island green. Built in 1918 this shot tester must've been hell, for the DM duffers, back at the end of the great war. I was particularly attracted to the right side of the green, with it's steep drop off. Delicious

No way to putt that one to the hole, until it freezes.



SL_Solow

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Best Candidates for Restoration
« Reply #49 on: November 12, 2004, 02:13:10 PM »
Been travelling so sorry for the late reply.  Shivas; I think Oak Park is better than you give it credit for but I agree that Noth Shore and Bob O'Linc have more potential.  Note that North Shore recently spent a lot of money to renovate bunkers, build tees etc.  What about Idlewild in Flossmoor?  Not a true "championship " test but a very interesting old (1903) course with real variety, a great routing and some very interesting features (e.g. see original sized greens at 6 and 10, holes 15 and 16).  In the last 30 years tees and greens have shrunk, fairways narrowed by large scale tree planting program, bunkers have lost shape.  The new greenkeeper "gets it" but appears to lack a free hand/budget.

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