Great opportunities and Ross

[T_MacWood]

Pat
That is fascinating. What exactly did Tufts say about Travis's or Ross's NY arrangement?

[SPDB]

Pat - I'm not attacking either, but the remarkable thing about this non-compete theory is that if any one else had raised it you'd be screaming bloody murder about how irresponsible and dangerous speculation is without a shred of proof.

I do think it is interesting and worth exploring, if there is anything that suggests its anything more than rumination on your part.

[Patrick_Mucci]

SPDB,

Stop acting like a wise guy and/or a moron.

I offered my comments as a theory, not a fact, and you obviously can't differentiate between the two.

Look up the word "theory" in a dictionary.

And, don't tell me what I would or wouldn't do based on a hypothetical situation, because you don't know the answer to that question..

If someone put forth a theory I have no problem with that.
If someone tries to pawn off a theory as fact without supporting evidence I do have a problem with that.

It seems as if you're defending the theory Tom MacWood tried to push as fact on Emmett's "involvement" at NGLA, which you endorsed, craved and encouraged,  ?  
A theory based on vague words, without one shred of specific information, or facts to support it.

I said all along that the non-compete agreement was a theory, and never offered it as fact, so don't tell me that if I was examining this thread from the outside that I'd jump all over it.

As to my theory, I'm sticking to it.

I never offered the theory as fact.

[TEPaul]

Here's my new Golfclubatlas.com post proposal.

When you make a post with some architectural idea from the past you categorize what that post is in one of three ways;

1. Theory
2. Fact
3. Thact (something between theory and fact)

[paul cowley]

...or faeory  [as in the celtic ].

[TEPaul]

"...or faeory  [as in the celtic ]."

I like that word. The etymology and word structure is probably appropriately Irish---something they pass off as fact but really isn't exactly. Some call it blarney or the Irish imagination!    

[T_MacWood]

The Anatomy of a Theory:

"Emmett's work at GCGC might have been responsible for him getting the nod at many a course, but the total exclusion of Ross is unusual.  Is it possible that they had a gentlemen's agreement regarding Long Island ?" (no answer)

"But, the real question remains, why wasn't Ross involved with any golf course in Long Island.  Perhaps Michael Fay might offer his thoughts." (no response from Fay)

"Was Ross friendly with Travis ?" (an affirmative response)

"It would seem logical, that if Ross and Travis were so friendly that they entered into a gentleman's agreement with respect to courses in their relative backyards." (the theory is tested….the theorist comes back with a second theory: the sour grapes theory)

"I seem to recall something Richard Tufts and/or his son told me almost 40 years ago about Ross and his work in the greater New York area, but don't have any documentation regarding a gentleman's agreement.  After all, in those days, a man's handshake was all the documentation anyone ever needed." (a shocking new development or a desperation move?)

[TEPaul]

The Anatomy of a Theory:

"Emmett's work at GCGC might have been responsible for him getting the nod at many a course, but the total exclusion of Ross is unusual.  Is it possible that they had a gentlemen's agreement regarding Long Island ?" (no answer)

Tom MacW:

That seems to be the generally accepted feeling with Emmet's career. GCGC got attention early and it'ld certainly stands to reason it spurred his career bigtime around NY and Long Island. Early notice almost always does that with an architect. Why do you suppose Macdonald used him at NGLA and also apparently to help him with Euro hole drawings? Emmet apparently spent a ton of time in Europe, particularly Ireland.

"But, the real question remains, why wasn't Ross involved with any golf course in Long Island.  Perhaps Michael Fay might offer his thoughts." (no response from Fay)

That'll probably never be known for sure but I think my idea on that is logical---Ross just wasn't part of that group, and that group basically dominated LI with a particular type of club and particular type of clientele. There were a few other architects not in that group who did some work there (Strong, Alison, a handful of others) who seemed a bit closer to that group for various reasons and then there were some who were just there and there earlier for a variety of reasons, generally the immigrant pro/greenkeeper/architect such as the Parks, the Dunns, Davis, Tucker etc would did a fair amount on LI. Bendelow seems to have done quite a bit but earlier before the National School juggernaut on LI and NY of Macdonald/Raynor/Banks/Emmet that followed GCGC and NGLA. Tillinghast knew all those guys for a couple of reasons.

"Was Ross friendly with Travis ?" (an affirmative response)

Was he?

"It would seem logical, that if Ross and Travis were so friendly that they entered into a gentleman's agreement with respect to courses in their relative backyards." (the theory is tested….the theorist comes back with a second theory: the sour grapes theory)

I'd like to know why that's logical. Is there any evidence from any time anywhere that Ross entered into some agreement with some other architect or anyone else who didn't work for him?

"I seem to recall something Richard Tufts and/or his son told me almost 40 years ago about Ross and his work in the greater New York area, but don't have any documentation regarding a gentleman's agreement.  After all, in those days, a man's handshake was all the documentation anyone ever needed." (a shocking new development or a desperation move?)

I'd just like to know what that "something" was. Does "something" in any way mean a "gentleman's agreement to not compete"? If Ross wanted to help his good friend (if Travis was in fact his good friend) one would think Ross would've offered to partner with him not do a non-compete agreement with him. God knows so many of the architects around Philly and NYC partnered with each other from those well known "groups". That's pretty undeniable through documentation. Perhaps it was just the logical off-shoot of the so-called "amateur" architects of that time and in those places (although a few of them did end up taking fees but it seems perhaps even the majority of them never did). Many of those early "amateur" architects also turned out to be some really heavyweights in golf architecture. Travis didn't do that many courses in LI anyway so what would the point of this non-compete agreement be?

Maybe Ross didn't like Macdonald and didn't feel like going into his territory---which Long Island certainly was. If Ross didn't like Macdonald he certainly wouldn't have been the only one in that day and age!

Some of the architects not from NY had offices in NYC such as Van Kleek apparently, although he may have piggy backed with Robert Moses. Ross certainly never had an office in NY that I ever heard of.

[T_MacWood]

TE
Emmet, Travis and Macdonald were all members of GCGC. It makes sense that both men would have been asked to assist at NGLA. Macdonald eventually dropped Travis.

Shortly after NGLA opened Macdonald acknowledged Whigham and Emmet: "For aid in the original purchase of the land, in the laying out of the course we must thank Mr.H J Whigham and Mr. Devereux Emmet."

Travis's very critical review and subsequent redesign of GCGC significanly increased the public's awareness of the golf course. Have you read Travis's critical article? As C&W wrote, by 1908 GCGC was no longer considered an Emmet design.

I included the quote in the 'Anatomy' post not to bring GCGC back into this discussion, but only to illustrate the chain events that led Pat to his theory. Stage 1: Emmet and Ross having the non compete.

Stage 2: Still no clue as to what happened, perhaps Fay might know. (As far as I can tell Ross was extremely popular with all groups; well-known and respected in all sections of the country--including NY. CC of Havana was developed by Long Islanders headed by construction magnate Fred Snare.)

Stage 3: Pat moves his attention from Emmet to Travis. (The Travis-Ross connection is well documented in the Old Man. Ross was also friends with Tillinghast. From what I gather friendly with just about everyone in golf.)

Stage 4: Pat's Travis-Ross gentleman's agreement is supported by a shocking new development...the lost Tufts conversation.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tom MacWood,

Travis wasn't the sole voice speaking about GCGC.

Many others praised the golf course to the highest level.
Something you've conveniently forgotten, or overlooked in your extensive research.

Garden City's prominent record for hosting major regional and national championships is undisputed, and with the hosting of those tournaments came notoriety and praise.
Something you again conveniently forgot or overlooked in your extensive research.

You use the common membership of three parties as making sense for your position, but deny the close friendship of Ross and Travis as making sense for another position.
Try to be consistent.

You equate purchasing land with the design and construction of specific features and holes at NGLA.  That's a hell of a stretch.  Oh, I forgot, you claim that Emmett was "involved" at NGLA, yet you didn't produce one shred of evidence that inidicates that he was doing any design and construction work at NGLA.

So far, you've failed to produce one iota of evidence that refutes the theory that Travis and Ross might have had a gentleman's agreement with respect to stepping on each others toes.

I know how painful that must be for you.

Lastly, I never offered my theory as fact, and used the term,
"might" over and over again.

You seem to offer your theories as fact, but, seem unable to support them with any meaningful hard evidence.

[T_MacWood]

Pat
We are all waiting for ANY facts you can provide. There is a first time for everything.

GCGC...nothing. Who said what and when? You equate Macdonald thanking Whigham and Emmet with assisting in the 'laying out' of the course with designing a flag. The Ross-Travis connection...you recall a conversation you might have had...the details of which you don't recall.

Get back to us when you can provide facts....any facts.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tom MacWood,

Some moron is posting under your name.

You're well aware of the praise GCGC received, from CBM and many others, so don't play dumb, no matter how well it suits you.

[Robert Emmons]

I believe the only course Ross built on Long Island was North Fork ...RHE

[SPDB]

Pat -
If I were you, I'd get a hold of the person posting under your name - but quick. Hopefully you'll find him in time to salvage your credibility, because he's making you look like a first rate hypocrite.

No matter how many times you call anyone a moron won't change the fact that you don't practice what you preach.

People offer "theories" all the time, most of the time they offer them in the form of questions (e.g. "What was DE's role at NGLA") and to the extent you disagree with the answer you scream about how there are no supporting facts. But the rules have suddenly changed for you, simply by parsing words - "theory" for you vs. whatever anybody else posts.  Honestly, do you really mean to tell me that if with respect to the DE thread, if Tom MacWood had posed his query as a "theory" rather than a question, you wouldn't have screamed bloody murdy?

With respect to the myth perpetuation that so often forms the basis of your objections, if you can't appreciate the obvious qualitative difference between posing a theory based on some evidence and positing a theory based on no evidence (and the fact that it is you, not others, doing the speculating doesn't count), then I'm afraid you are more irretrievably lost than even I had originally feared.

And let me be clear, I don't object to your offering theories, I only object to your not allowing others a similar liberty.

You lost a lot of credibility on this thread. Your obstinate interference when real discussion was offered (on theories supported by at least some evidence) was annoying and self-serving, but at least it was consistent. Under the new rules (which you will be held to), somebody will avoid your ire only by making sure that they post theories that have absolutely no basis in fact. The moment they offer some support, their theory will be doomed.

Another remarkable sea change represented by your post is the shift in the burden of proof -

THE MUCCI COROLLARY

So far, you've failed to produce one iota of evidence that refutes the theory that Travis and Ross might have had a gentleman's agreement with respect to stepping on each others toes.

Up until Saturday, the burden of proof you required used to be on those who would have others believe their "myths," now it appears that henceforth, the onus will be on you to disprove the "theories" of others with which you disagree. I'm not certain you recognized the amount of work you created for yourself.


And, lastly, ss far as telling you what you would or would not do in a hypothetical situation - you're right up until this thread I would have known, now I have no idea.

[Patrick_Mucci]

SPDB,

I never stated that I had one iota of fact to support my theory.  I said, all along, that it was a possibility due to the nature of their relationship.  And, I used the term "might have" often, carefully avoiding any possibility that I was offering this theory as fact.

Tom MacWood presented NO hard evidence to support his position/theory, he implied that DE was involved with design and construction work at NGLA, and that was a quantum leap, one not borne of any supporting facts.  So, perhaps you need to bone up on your reading comprehension skills.
I never offered my theory as fact.

There's a big difference between the two, and you know it.

Tom MacWood was also iintellectually dishonest, because he knew that GCGC was widely praised by everyone, including CBM, with a record of hosting Major event after Major event for the period circa 1900 to 1936.  Yet he chose to claim that GCGC wasn't widely acknowledged as a great course, citing one voice, who had a vested interest in the golf course's outcome, as a universal position.  
You know that's disengenuous and intellectually dishonest.

If you want to talk about losing credibility, those posts of his should be primer 101, or exhibit A.  
I'm not concerned about my credibility.

With respect to your allegation that I"ve created more work for myself, it's just the opposite, your post has simplified my life on GCA.com and reduced any future "work".

Although I do recall several conversations with the younger Tufts and a gentleman whose name I just recalled last night, Ken Schroeder, who was either a PR fellow at Pinehurst or held some other position related to Pinehurst, I never offered my vaque recollections of those conversations as fact.  Recalling conversations held 40 years ago is difficult at best, but if more comes to me, as Ken Schroeder's name did last night, I'll post it.

As far as you knowing how I would respond to a hypothetical post, that's something that you didn't know before this thread, and something that won't know after this thread.
To claim otherwise would be presumptuous and arrogant,  but not out of character.

Further conversations are best communicated through my GCA.com attorney, David Moriarty.  

[Brad Klein]

Ian Andrew takes a cheap shot at my Ross biography re: Banff. He's simply off base. There's absolutely no doubt that Ross went up there to redesign and expand an existing 9-hole layout, but that it took close to seven years after Ross' one visit to complete the project and the ensuring course was kept on low ground and had little of the drama that the successor course there, by Stanley Thompson, now has.

One other clarification, this for TEPaul. I didn't deal with it in enough detail in my book, but there's absolutely no evidence that Ross was ever considered for the Augusta National job and no evidence that he was embittered over not getting it.

Bidding for jobs was not common, but it happened. Ross won the job at Seminole because the only other proposal for the site (architect was never named) planned to level the wonderful mound on the northwest end that plays such a crucial role for holes 2,3,4,14.

Travis' account of his work at Pinehurst No. 2 is totally unreliable and baseless. While Ross knew all of the era's architects, it is true he stayed away from them professionally, though he corresponded with many of them and played golf occasionally with them as well.

I think the Long Island issue is very interesting. The specualtion about mutual non-compete clauses is baseless and simply grasping at straws. What people seem to undervalue is that unlike Ross, Raynor, Macdonald, Tillinghast, Travis and Emmett were all based in the immediate area and had offices here as well as ongoing social connections. While Ross he did many courses in RI and NJ, a handful in Connecticut and of course Wykagyl and Siwanoy in Westchester, most of Ross's clients came through his major affiliation at Pinehurst, where they were resort guests. Probably half his Midwest work came this way. Maybe the interestng question is why Long Islanders didn't vacation much at Pinehurst - because they went to Europe, for one thing. In any case, Ross didn't have a nearby office and was simply not as well networked. Nor, by the way, did Tillinghast, Raynor and Macdonald do much work in New England. There are all sorts of regional issues here, but trying to fathom up a non-compete clause is absurd.

[Scott_Burroughs]

Brad,

Thanks for clearing that up for me.  I did go back and look at my DDR last week to check out what I thought I'd remembered reading and confirmed it, but hadn't posted a reply to Ian yet.  You had in there that Ross' design part wasn't finished being built until 1924 and that Thompson's re-do was started in 1927, making Ross' work very short-lived.  I think you also wrote that about 4 or 5 holes have any of that old Ross left (at least features or routing) and that part of the new 9 uses some of that old Ross routing.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Brad Klein,

I mentioned the geographic issue regarding the epicenter of different architect's operations.

Even though I offered the theory as a remote possibility, I don't think a gentleman's agreement between Ross and Travis can be viewed as a total impossibility.  After all, Ross was a big time producer and Travis was a small fry.

Those same wealthy, socially connected Long Islanders spent a lot of time in Florida where Ross flourished, hence I believe they were exposed to his work and had ample access to him.

[TEPaul]

Brad:

I have no idea where I heard that rumor Ross felt he lost out on ANGC and consequenty that inspired him to do all he did with #2---wherever I heard that it was a long time ago. I agree with your sense that the reason Ross didn't do anything in Long Island was simply that he wasn't connected there as  was the Long Island or "National School" contingent. Also a good deal of the better known courses from that Long Island contingent were quite early.

[paul cowley]

TP.....good faeory !....keep up the good work guys ,i'm going to bed  

[TEPaul]

"TP.....good faeory !...."

PaulC:

It's not even close to "faeory"----but the chances are extremely good it's "thact".

[Doug Braunsdorf]

TEPaul- I think Ron Whitten wrote some about this in one of his GD articles about Ross.  Check out the article.  It may be just that-a rumor.  Here's the link (cut/paste):
http://www.golfdigest.com/courses/critic/index.ssf?/features/the_man_3r1pia4c.html

While I am NOT selectively cutting and pasting to create a point, this very well could be true.  I've heard the same rumors in different places, here, and I think in a few other books.  I seem to recall an interview with Bobby Jones in the Nicklaus majors retrospective film where, if I am not mistaken, he said that the '65 Masters was played in firm and fast conditions, similar to seaside courses, which was their original intent in creating the golf course (Augusta Nat'l).  
You have to agree, the design of Pinehurst does embody the ground game a lot better than Augusta National today!

Also, I too agree, and have agreed previously, that Ross may have been shut out on LI because he was not connected to the social fabric.  Yes, a few exceptions, a few non-bluebloods such as Park and Strong, among others, but for the most part, most of the "classic" courses of note, and those NLE, are either CBM, Raynor, CBM/Raynor, Tillie, Emmet, or Travis.  These men, with the exception of Travis, were all bluebloods, or within that particular community.  Make a list of all the courses built from estates on the island and most all of them are created by this small group.  And you are right, most were created quite early--I think during the first decade, teens and Roaring Twenties.  I think the course which is youngest is Bethpage, but this is a poor example because Robert Moses most likely selected Tillinghast himself, and because he was still producing courses then.  (There is debate about the selection of Tillinghast, but it's another discussion for another post).  Now Travis wasn't a blueblood, but I believe his appeal, his credibility came from his record as an amateur golfer and GCGC.  Everything else (Cherry Valley, GCCC, Westchester, etc.) he created came after these achievements.  
Ross just wasn't part of the LI society who were creating golf courses.  

[ForkaB]

Doug B

I agree with you regarding the social aspect.  Ross was just a wee bockle from the Heilans, and a tradesman (carpenter) no less.  The proper Bostonians, confident in their superiority, could use him with impunity, but there is no way those socially insecure nabobs from the Met area were going to choose him when quasi or self-styled toffs like CBM, Tilly and Dev were available.  Same thing (in spades) with the Dixieans at Augusta and the wannabies in California.  Ross could never wear the kilt with as much pretense at MacKenzie, nor drink with the Tilllies, nor grow roses with the Thomases of the world.  As a Free Kirker, he had few acknowledged vices......

As for Philadelphia, well, as always, that is a very special case.  By his statements, Ross got the 2 best sites available (Gulph Mills and Aronomink) but he gets no respect.  Maybe they put him off by telling him htat the scrapple was really haggis......

Rich

PS--there is a lot of talk of DJR's career starting in the 1910's, possibly even in Havana.  How about Winchester (my original "home" club) which was designed in 1903?  I'll be there this summer and suss it out, in case anybody cares......

[T_MacWood]

The original question dealt with the elite projects nationally and Ross, eventually focusing on Long Island. If you look at the super projects on LI--super sites or super budgets--you will find a mixed bag of architects: Timber Point/Alison, Maidstone/Park, Lido & National/Macdonald, Fishers Island/Raynor, Engineers & Inwood/Strong, Montauk Downs/Tippet, North Hills/Tucker, Bethpage/Tillinghast, Shinnecock Hills/Flynn. And larger number of projects slightly down the rung like Crescent Athletic & Women's National/Emmet and Lakeville/Alison.  

It is easy to explain why Emmet, Macdonald, Raynor & Tillinghast (less easy for Tillinghast, I'm not sure he'd be considered a member of the LI establishment) designed a siginificant number of LI courses. It is more difficult to explain why Ross did not design one.

Ross recieved a good deal of press in the NY Times (interviews and articles)...his nationally reputation was known throughout the NY Metro.

From what I understand Ross dominated Rhode Island....did he have difficulty dealing with bluebloods there also?

Another interesting fact Travis was nearly shutout on LI too....could his poor relationship with Macdonald hve been a factor?

[wsmorrison]

Richard,
Ross was in prime marketing mode in his statements about GMGC and Aronimink.   Though I don't think he ever said they were the two best sites available rather the two best courses.  Very few in the district would consider Gulph Mills and Aronimink the best land for golf in the area.  Great clubs, yes but far from the best land.  

Interesting question though about the best land for golf and who got it in different regions.  Certainly different architects saw and used the land differently.  Did you know that Tillinghast and Peter Lees both described the land that the Cascades course is on as unsuitable for a good golf course.  Yet Flynn came in and saw the land differently, recognized its potential and designed a world-class golf course on the same site.