[TEPaul]

At Misquamicut Ross designed the present 18 hole course. What he found there was a very short course of app 10-12 holes (stick routing still exists) of not much more than par 3 lengths that did not include all the property the present course is on. Some think that previous short course may have been the work of Willie Park. Whether or not Ross used some or any pieces of those former holes is hard to tell at this point. Misquamicut should not be considered a redesigned course but rather a new Ross 18 hole course. At least that's from the best knowledge of the club and its historian.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tom MacWood,

Fowler and MacKenzie had no problem traveling coast to coast.

Sure, because they had nothing else to do.
Ross's volume of courses in the U.S. dwarfs their efforts.

Most of Fowler's work was in California, with only one original course outside of California, and one remodel outside of California.  And, both courses outside of California were done in the same year, 1922.

MacKenzie, likewise, was centered IN California with only four original courses outside of California, ANGC, Crystal Downs & Michigan, and Ohio State, hardly the East coast, and three remodels outside of California.


Neither men did any work in the US, much less California, prior to 1920's.

Willie Watson and JD Dunn dominated in California--both Scots who came from the East.

How can you make that comparison, their body of work in the U.S. was infinitesimal when compared to Ross's.  

For a guy known for research you have a BIZZARE & BIASED way of  presenting your findings.  

Watson did almost all of his work in California, with a little in the mid-west, Barely getting East of the Mississippi, and NEVER coming close to the east coast.  So how can you claim that Watson "came from the east" without one course within 500 miles of the east coast.

The bulk of JD Dunns limited work in the US was confined to three states, California, Florida and NY, but, you've conveniently overlooked the dates of his work in those states.
It would appear that he was stationary, working within specific time frames in each state, and not traveling back and forth as you implied.

Tom, why do you knowingly distort and/or misrepresent the findings of your research ?

You also didn't answer my question with respect to the quality of the site, have you played Pine Valley ?

[T_MacWood]

Pat
I was simply correcting some of your points:

1. Crump began PV around 1912, just when Ross was starting his design career. (CC of Havana example)

2. Maidstone was begun in 1896, long before Ross dreamed of being an architect. (Park's major contribution came in the 20's)

3. Hence both of those examples should be dismissed. (Both examples valid)

4. Given the modes of transportation and the fact that Ross didn't design a golf course in California until 1923 would seem to rule out Pebble Beach as a potential site for him.(Transportation was not a problem for MacKenzie and Fowler who worked on both coasts, not mention work in Britain in Fowler's case and work in Australia & South America in MacKenzie's case. Raynor is also an example--maybe the best example--his work load was very heavy and traveling to California, Hawaii, Midwest, Florida, East coast, Puerto Rico and all points in between).

5. Perhaps the distance, means to cross the continent, and the time and effort to travel back and forth to California made designing in the coastal west unattractive for him, hence Olympic's courses should be ruled out as well. (Could be true...only one design in California for whatever reason).

"Fowler and MacKenzie had no problem traveling coast to coast....Sure, because they had nothing else to do."

Fowler schedule in the few months he was in the US in the early 1920's was breakneck. With work in California, Massachusetts, Pennsylvania, Texas and Washington, not to mention the UK.  The totality of his activities is just beginning to be discovered. Whatever your opinion of his activities, the fact remains he was awarded a number of plum projects with special sites.  My point. The same is true with MacKenzie...what about his work in the UK, Australia, NZ, Canada and South America during the same period?

Ross's volume of courses during the same time was greater, but they were very active and their projects were spread over a greater area (an international scope)...the question still remains why Ross did not get the spectacular sites during the same period.

Willie Watson split his time between the west and Midwest and East. He was a Professional at Pasadena in the winter and in NY in the summer. JD made name for himself as an architect in Europe, then on the east coast (Quaker Ridge) including a lot of activity in Florida  If you are looking to C&W for documentation of their activities, I'm afraid that it is not a totally accurate. Perhaps they aren't the best examples, but whatever the case transportation did not appear to be an issue with either man.

"You also didn't answer my question with respect to the quality of the site, have you played Pine Valley ?" Because the answer is the same as it was the last dozen times you asked it. I'm not interested in playing your disqualification game...and I don't think anyone else is either.

The question still remains why didn't Ross get the super sites like Eastward Ho!, Shinnecock, Maidstone, Montauk, Cypress Point, St.Andre, etc.?

Did he ever get the extravagant big budget project like Lido, Timber Point, Yale, Banff Springs, Hirono, Chiberta, etc.?

Was it his choice or the clients choice?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tom MacWood,

Then I can conclude that you've never seen the Pine Valley site, and thus you can't make any personal evaluation of its merits, or compare it to other sites, because you've never seen it.

I would say that disqualifies you from making personal evaluations with respect to Pine Valley.

[BCrosby]

Pat, the needle on the curmudg-o-meter is spinning. It's outta control, I tell ya.

That was a pretty ugly post.

Tom may be wrong. He may be misinformed. He may be uninformed.

But who are you to tell him he is not entilted to an opinion?

Where is Dr. Katz when you need him?

Bob

[Patrick_Mucci]

BCrosby,

When Tom MacWood presents his opinions as facts, and those opinions aren't borne out by the facts, I'm obligated to  challenge his inferences.

Ross's work in the U.S. dwarfed the combined works of ALL of the others he mentioned, by multiples.

Secondly, the other architects he mentioned didn't traipse back and forth between the West Coast and the East Coast as Tom implied.  Some barely got east of the Mississsippi.
Most were centered in California.  Ross was all over the country, designing golf course in 30 states.

He's a good researcher, but he knew when he made that post that what he implied was false, a distortion and misrepresentation of the FACTS.

If you don't see the danger of him pawning off erroneous conclusions as facts, then you just don't get it.  Tom likes to draw a conclusion, and then use selective research results to support his position, but you probably haven't noticed that.
I thought it important to expand the data base to provide more information on which to base an opinion, but obviously, you're not interested in ALL of the facts.

Lastly, I don't need you, of all people, to tell me what to do or not to do, Tom MacWood is fully capable of speaking for himself.

Why don't you read what he wrote, research the work, sites and time frames of the four architects he mentioned, and then post an opinion on the basis of YOUR research.
That might have some value.

Your comments to me are worthless, architecturally and otherwise.

I also noticed, in reviewing the pages of GCA.com that you haven't started a single thread in the last 18 pages.
Perhaps you might apply yourself to being creative rather then critical.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tom MacWood,

Ross didn't do a ton of courses in the NY Metro (no where near the number Tilly and Emmet did),

In the metro NY Area, the number of courses Ross designed in NJ numbers 10.  Tillinghast also designed 10 in NJ.
Surprisingly, Emmett did 0 in NJ.

In the metro NY area, the number of courses Ross designed in NY numbers 7.  Tillilnghast designed 10 in NY.

I'd say in the Metro NY area Ross and Tilly were basically equals with AWT's work slightly outnumbering Ross, and mostly because AWT got to design courses with 36 holes, like Baltusrol, Winged Foot and Bethpage, so the number of jobs probably equals out to seven each in NY.

In the Metro NY area, the number of courses that Emmett did in NJ is 0.

However he did a great number of courses in New York State, and especially in Long Island.

Ross, as you said did absolutely nothing in Long Island.

Could they have had an unwritten anti-compete or territorial agreement between them ?

Is it also possible that Emmett's work at GCGC catapulted him to the head of the line for any work to be done on Long Island.

[T_MacWood]

Pat
Who put the bee in your bonnet?

You'll be glad to know the inclusion of PVGC was not based upon my personal evaluation of the site's merits. I was relying on the opinions of Thomas, Hunter, Colt, et al. If you want to criticize me, you can criticize me for using inferior judges of golf course sites.

"Ross's work in the U.S. dwarfed the combined works of ALL of the others he mentioned, by multiples."

You are correct, isn't that the point, based on the legth of his career and the number of projects, it is strange he wasn't involved in more great opportunities.

With all due respect to Central and North NJ, Long Island had more prime time projects. Do you find it odd that Ross did not design on Long Island?

Emmet produced Rockaway River and Greenacres in NJ. Emmet and Tilly both did at least twice as many courses in the NY Metro than Ross....probably closer to three times the number. Unfortunately about half of Emmet's designs are gone.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tom MacWood,

If you have no personal experience with respect to the site at Pine Valley, in what context would you judge any opinion relative to a comparison to other sites ?  Which, is what you asked for.

Regarding course locations, you need a lesson in geography.

Green Acres is practically in Pennsylvania, far south of, and not considered remotely close to the NY Metro Area.

Are you sure that Emmett designed Rockaway River, and not Cooper River ?

AWT and Ross designed the same number of clubs in the Metro NY area.  Perhaps, living in Ohio, you're not familiar with what is considered the Metro NY area.

TEPaul has the same problem with the GAP, trying to annex golf courses in NJ, not remotely connnected to Philadelphia or Pennsylvania.

But, it is strange that Ross doesn't have one golf course in an area that is considered as a premier area for golf course sites.

Emmett's work at GCGC might have been responsible for him getting the nod at many a course, but the total exclusion of Ross is unusual.  Is it possible that they had a gentlemen's agreement regarding Long Island ?

[T_MacWood]

Neither one of us has personal experience with the raw site at PV...thus the reliance on historical sources. Ross is a historical figure, the question assumed that the reader would consider it in a historical sense...if you don't have a hsitorical base of knowledge you might find the question frustrating, resulting in a lashing out at the questioner.

Emmet designed both Rockaway and Cooper River. Cooper was near Camden. Greenacres (near Trenton) is part of the Metropolitan GA. If it is good enough for them, it is good enough for me.

If you want to challenge me on the activities of Tillinghast, Emmet and Ross in the NY Metro...that's fine. If you would please start a seperate thread....you have diverted this thread long enough.

I'm not aware of any relationship between Ross and Emmet...they were from completely different worlds. I'm not certrain about GCGC being the springboard for Emmet. His design career didn't really start until around 1909 and by that time Travis had completely redesigned Emmet's GCGC (and had been critical of the original design). His design career really took off in the teens. I believe his career benefited more from his connection w/ NGLA and Macdonald and his own network of blueblood friends.

[SPDB]

Pat - Tom's got you on the horns of a technicality. Maybe you should move to OH, and he to NJ, as his familiarity with the MGA appears better than yours.

If you disqualify Greenacres (which is part of the Met), because it is too remote, then you have no principled basis for including NGLA, which is further away from NYC (since your metro NY seems a bit rusty, that stands for New York City, the center of the Metro area, or in proximate terms some 65-70 miles Northeast of Princeton, and some 100 miles due west of Sebonac Road).    

[TEPaul]

Pat, Tom MacWood and SPDB;

Pat obviously knows more about the NY Metropolitan area and its golf courses than Tom MacWood does as Pat's lived there all his life and I probably know more about the Philadelphia Metropolitan area and certainly the Golf Association of Philadelphia than all of you but none of you are correct if you think the metropolitan areas of either city is synonymous with the MET Golf Association (MET) and the Golf Association of Philadelpha (GAP).

The fact is those two golf associations (both founded in the late 1890s) completely overlap, at least they certainly do today. The regional boundaries of those two associations are determined by each association, no one else. I do not know what the regional boundaries of the MET (golf associaton) are (not hard to find out though)  but I do know they have member clubs fairly far south into New Jersey. And the GAP's regional radius (in the bylaws) is 150 miles (as the crow flies) from Penn's Hat in center city Philadelphia. Obviously that puts the GAP's purview above the North Jersey state line and probably into Connecticut and certainly into Long Island. Although GAP has no member clubs in Long Island they certainly could, and they do have a good number of member clubs in northern New Jersey and New Jersey generally. The regional boundaries of the GAP were expanded from 50 miles (of Penn's Hat) to 150 miles about 10-12 years ago (and if Rich Goodale doesn't stop dicking around with his misperceptions of CONGU and GHIN I'm going to recommend that GAP expand it's purview in its bylaws to 3,000 miles from Penn's Hat as the crow flies and nab his course in Scotland!).

The Met section (golf association) and the GAP section (golf associaton) are in no way synonymous or similar in area to the New York metropolitan area or the Philadelphia metropolitan area and so speaking about golf courses within the metropolitan areas of either city as synonymous to the golf associations of either city is completely misleading.

[T_MacWood]

TE
While the GAP-MGA boundary dispute is fascinating, I'm more interested in why Ross was shutout on Long Island. And why it appears most of the super plum projects went else where.  


 

[Patrick_Mucci]

SPDB,

If you're going to jump at another chance to disagree with me, just to disagree with me, you should pick your battles more carefully.

Tom MacWood specifically referenced the NY Metro area, not clubs that join the MGA, which like the GAP actively recruits clubs, almost regardless of their location.

Green Acres, which I've played 50+ times is nowhere near the NY Metro area, and only a moron would make that claim.

I don't consider NGLA as part of the NY Metro area either, that's your claim.

Tom MacWood,

Neither of us has any experience with the raw site at PV, but I have extensive experience with the current site, and you have absolutely none.  I submit that the raw site isn't much different then the current site.  The same can be said for the 10 hole short course, the topography is little changed due to those golf courses being laid upon them.  
And, the surrounding property remains in its natural state.
I've seen the sites and can make evaluations based on my personal experience.  You've never seen the sites and thus can't make any personal evaluations about the site, or any comparison of the site to other sites.  You're disqualified from making evaluations or comparisons due to the fact that you've never seen the site, or the surrounding area.

History is often defined by its authors, and not necessarily a reflection of the truth.  It's one thing to read about an archeological dig, quite another to experience it.

You again, falsely conclude that I'm lashing out due to your presumption that I have no historical basis/knowledge.
I have that and more, I've been to the site innumerable times, I've studied it and its surroundings.  You've never seen it, yet posture yourself as one qualified to make evaluations relative to its merits and in comparison to other sites.
That's rather arrogant.

Since this thread is about the awarding of sites, prime and otherwise, my posts are germane to the thread.
You want them to go away because they challenge your conclusions which have no basis in actual onsite evaluation.

Pine Valley's site isn't Shadow Creek's site.

You maintain that Pine Valley was such a wonderful site.
How is that site demostratively different then sites 1/4, 1/2, 1 and 2 miles away ?

OR, is it deemed a great site because Crump created a masterpiece on it, and the site is given credit rather then Crump's genius ?

Is NGLA a great site, or did CMB make it one ?

What made the sites so good, that you claim they were PLUM jobs ?
Perhaps it wasn't the site at all, but the architects creative talent that produced a great golf course on that site.

Time and time again you lectured me and others that Rees Jones had been given great sites and messed them up.
You made these comments despite the fact that you hadn't seen some of those sites, which goes back to the subject of arrogance.  How can you make any evaluation relative to the merits of a site, when you've never seen the raw site, or seen and played the finished golf course on that site

Perhaps you view certain PLUM sites in the context of the finished product and other PLUM sites in the context of who the architect was, or perhaps both.

As to your question regarding Long Island, Emmett's work at GCGC didn't harm him,  the fact that he was retained to build course after course nearby would seem to indicate that he was accepted as an architect of merit and that his work at GCGC was applauded.

What BlueBlood courses did Emmet design in Long Island ?

Your desire to champion Emmet's involvement at NGLA has warped your conclusions, as usual.

But, the real question remains, why wasn't Ross involved with any golf course in Long Island.

Perhaps Michael Fay might offer his thoughts.

[T_MacWood]

Pat
Your credentials at PVGC are impressive. I'm not certain why it is important or germane to this discussion, unless you are taking exception with Thomas, Hunter, Colt's (et al) opinion of the site.

As I said before there are two kinds of prime projects IMO: projects with fantastic sites and projects with huge budgets. Ross didn't appear get many of either type. Why?

A great site is a great site no matter what is or isn't done with it....see the Sand Hills of Nebraska (there are hundreds of great sites laying in wait). There is the example MacKenzie gave of site given to Colt that resulted in a diapointing result due to poor execution (Colt was not involved in construction).

Interjecting Rees into the discussion, you must either be glutton for punishment or completely focused on disrailing this discussion. No thanks.

You are probably right that GCGC didn't hurt...although some of the criticism was pretty brutal. What really helped Emmet was being associated with Macdonald & NGLA and a collaboration w/ Travis at Salisbury Links ( a well publicized and fairly revolutionary project). And his contacts.

Blueblood courses off the top of my head St. George's, Meadowbrook, Women's National, and the Vanderbilt Estate.

 

[SPDB]

Pat - I wasn't disagreeing with you. I was having a little fun at your expense, I didn't know you would react so harshly. I apologize.

Quick question which may resolve a "moron's view" of the Metro NY area. Would you mind naming the 10 New Jersey Ross courses you claim he designed in the MetroNY area?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tom MacWood,

I can't speak to the criticism you allude to, but the "record" speaks loudly on behalf of the golf course at GCGC.

It held the following tournaments:

1899            Metropolitan Amateur Championship
1900            US Amateur Championship
1902            US Open
1904            Metropolitan Amateur Championship
1908            US Amateur Championship
1911            Metropolitan Amateur Championship
1913            US Amateur Championship
1916            Metropollitan Open Championship
1921            Metropolitan Amateur Championship
1923            New York State Amateur Championship
1924            Walker Cup
1936            US Amateur Championship

it's hard for me to envision substantive criticism in the face of the fact that the club held Championship after Championship, continuously, from its very beginings through the 20's and into the 30's.

That long standing Championship pedigree would seem to have been a major feather in Emmett's cap when he sought other commissions. I not sure that many on Long Island were aware of exactly what Emmett designed and altered, and what Travis altered.

Was Ross friendly with Travis ?

[T_MacWood]

Pat
I'm surprised you are not more familar with GCGC's history.

Travis's critical article was one of the important moments in early golf architecture...it led to his redesign of the golf course. Your list is impressive, but appears to ignore the date the course was significantly altered by Travis. Emmet had a pretty interesting design career. His next design was a number of years later--around 1907--at Salisbury with Travis. That course was very well recieved. He was also assisting Macdonald at NGLA around this time. I suspect these two projects spurred him on to become a 'professional' architect....not long after he went into the golf architecture business.

Travis and Ross were friendly from what I understand. Travis claimed to have assisted Ross at Pinehurst.

[ian]

Pat,

"Was Ross friendly with Travis ? "

They were very good friends. They spent time together at Pinehurst in particular, played matches against each other, and I'm pretty sure there is correspondence between the two.

In the Old Man Donald Ross is quoted as saying "I used to play a great deal with Walter Travis and I watched him get crabbier and crabbier....

Travis has claimed some credit for the evolution at Pinehurst #2 in an article from the 1920 American Golfer where he said among other things

From the Old Man, page 119 and 120

"...Donald and I were a unit. And the course was bunkered accordingly........

[TEPaul]

"TE
While the GAP-MGA boundary dispute is fascinating, I'm more interested in why Ross was shutout on Long Island. And why it appears most of the super plum projects went else where."

Tom:

I certainly doubt any particular record or explanation exists about that but to me the reason is probably fairly obvious. In that area (Long Island) at that time, there was a fairly interconnected little fraternity of both architects and probably clients too. It's very unlikely they all got together and consciously shut Ross out, but in a society like that one at that time (in that era) most all those people either knew each other or certainly who each other were. An atmosphere like that one was then the fraternity can get pretty tight and the fact is Ross was just not part of that New York or more specifically Long Island golf fraternity. To understand something like this one should understand Emmet, Macdonald (Raynor), Travis and to some extent Tillinghast's connections and a good example of that would probably be something like the Lesley Cup as well as the New York City business world and how it interconnected with the Long Island social world. Most of the architects mentioned here were part of that world. Also see some of my remarks in other threads about how interconnected and tight that so-called WASP world of that time and place really was.

That's probably the primary reason Ross doesn't have more courses on Long Island. I'm pretty familiar with it for other reasons, not the least of which I was born in Locust Valley Long Island and lived the first twenty years of my life right there.

[T_MacWood]

TE
Willie Park-Jr. and Hugh Alison broke through. Tillinghast and Flynn assimilated. MacKenzie even worked his way onto LI.

Ross's reputation must have been top shelf, a number of his courses had hosted major championships. Was it his choice or something else that kept him off Long Island and generally out of the picture on most great opportunities.

[TEPaul]

Tom MacW:

It'd be very illogical to assume that all other architects would be shut out of Long Island even if there was a tight little fraternity there (as there clearly was). Of course there were going to be other architects such as Alison, Park and others working there. The early immigrant architects who worked some of those very early clubs (and in some cases built them) were here from the very beginnings of golf in America and certainly did early golf architecture. Those would include architects such as Davis, the Dunns, the Parks, Strong, Tucker etc.

On Long Island, Macdonald and his incredibly noteworthy NGLA probabably changed that to a large degree---plus he came slightly later than those early golf and course architects on Long Island (the late 19th century and before the teens).

But to me it's completely illogical to think that Donald Ross would never have wanted to work on Long Island. Why on earth would you suspect that would have been? Some of those Long Island, New York projects in the teens and particularly the 1920s were some of the most lucrative and expensive and high visibility of that era! Some of those people, basically those captains of industry and kingmakers were so damn rich they even got into building numerous golf courses for themselves on Long Island in that era!

But who knew most all of them and who did they know about? Architects like Macdonald (Raynor) and Emmet, that's who. They were part of that world. Donald Ross wasn't, even as famous as he'd eventually become!

[Doug Braunsdorf]

TEPaul-Thanks for finishing this discussion off.  I believe you answered my original question in my Jeffersonville GC post from earlier this month/late last month.  It does make perfect sense.  CBM (include Raynor) and Emmet, and Tillinghast, were all blue bloods, and part of this "society".  They were one of "them".  Ross wasn't.  And when it was time to design and build a new course, as it is even today when we undertake different things such as making home improvements, or buying a car, we often look to those in our personal circles to offer recommendations and assistance.  It just so happened that some of the Gold Coast society counted in their circle some of the greatest architects in the history of the game.  

[T_MacWood]

TE
I don't supsect Ross refused to work on LI, I simply asked the question was it his choice or the result of client's not wanting to hire him. I suppose the third choice could be it was fluke he never worked on LI. I have no idea what the answer might be.

Your explanation makes sense until you begin to test it with the facts. Alison, Park, MacKenzie, Stiles, Van Kleek, Strong, Maxwell, Lees, McCarthy, Flynn, Tillinghast, Tippett, and Winton were invloved in designs on Long Island. A large number of designs and some of the most prominent projects. Not in the early years, but in the Golden Age of Long Island golf development--teens, twenties and thirties.

If there was a faternity, it appears it was a loose one that was frequently open to outsiders. With the national reputation Ross had at this time and the number of courses he'd designed in NY state (close to 30 + NJ), would he even be considered an outsider?

Doug
Were MacKenzie, Park, Winton, Stiles, Strong, Travis, Van Kleek and Maxwell bluebloods?

The question still remains nationally, why Ross would be skipped over on so many prime jobs?

[TEPaul]

"Your explanation makes sense until you begin to test it with the facts. Alison, Park, MacKenzie, Stiles, Van Kleek, Strong, Maxwell, Lees, McCarthy, Flynn, Tillinghast, Tippett, and Winton were invloved in designs on Long Island. A large number of designs and some of the most prominent projects. Not in the early years, but in the Golden Age of Long Island golf development--teens, twenties and thirties."

Tom:

I think you have to put this kind of thing in the context of the realities of a place like Long Island, New York at that time. It's a big broad area with obviously more than one group of interests. It would be illogical to think that they could or would want to keep everyone or even anyone out, other than to be interested in doing some projects that they simply wanted, particularly if they knew the principals and such well. I doubt the apparently somewhat interconnected group including MacDonald/Raynor/Banks/Emmet (a fraternity?) even had the capacity or inclination to do every project that came up. Don't forget, around the mid 1920s it looks like Macdonald was getting sick of the business of building golf courses and he may have gotten weary of it earlier than that although he did do a few. I suspect Macdonald may have basically referred or shepparded Raynor's career throughout his own glory years through the teens and until 1926 when he suddenly died.

Ross was a loner---one who rarely if ever partnered or apparently collaborated as these little architectural fraternities around Long Island and Philadelphia and Monterrey apparently did to an extent perhaps not seen again.

But don't forget about that WASP world of clients that seems to have stretched from Maine to Florida and some other places---they did use many of the same architects probably inspired by each others clubs and successes since so many of them seemed to know each other in one way or another. Ross was certainly a contributor of courses to that group, just apparently not around Long Island! But that WASP world was by no means the only one building interesting golf course in that area at that time. There was also some heavy-weight Jewish clientele and others that were not at all connected to that WASP world and that fact alone is what makes that WASP world depicted by a sociologist such as Digby Baltzell so interesting. Since they basically wouldn't let others into their social world other groups just went around them and went out and did their own thing with their own clubs and courses.

"If there was a faternity, it appears it was a loose one that was frequently open to outsiders. With the national reputation Ross had at this time and the number of courses he'd designed in NY state (close to 30), would he even be considered an outsider?"

Loose compared to what? In the case of the MET area of Long Island it seems like it was pretty tight to me. Collaboration of the type that happened in Philly and LI, as well as the Monterrey area doesn't seem to have ever been done again to that extent.

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