Addiction

[guesst]

Shivas, you have single-handedly demonstrated the kinds of attitudes SOME men have which keep more women from playing, from playing well, and, as an extension, from posting on GCA.  That attitude is the reason I don't go to the golf course every day.  

It is in the nature of people (both men and women) to enjoy what they are good at and to like to be places they are welcomed and appreciated.  I truly do enjoy going to the golf course.  I like the good ones, for obvious reasons.  I like that bad ones because it's so much fun to poke fun of the tree in front of the bunker and wonder who was thinking what.  But I don't go nearly as often as I want to, because I know there are guys out there with your attitude, and I'd just as soon avoid it.  

I take my son when the driving range is empty and there's no one on the practice greens.  I' go to the worse-redesign-ever-fashioned here in town because that's where the other girls go . . . since they are as uncomfortable as I on the ass-kicking new course right next door . . . because of a few men who have your attitude.

I don't give a shit if men want to curse and throw their clubs around.  I think they look a little ridiculous, and I may chuckle (inwardly or out loud, depending upon how well I know them), but it's not my role to monitor the behavior of other adults.  And most women on the golf course feel that way, in my experience.  If you watch your manners when there are women around, but not other men, well, that's your choice.  Certainly not every man feels the need to do that.  I've heard more, "shit fuck piss" from the Armenian than I care to recall or recount here.  

I guess the problem I have is that as soon as you hear "women" you instantly make judgment calls based upon gender alone, and that's a bummer for those of us who do walk fast and hit straight.  It would be nice if we didn't have to prove first that we are "worthy," against your prejudice.  I would go alone a lot more often (and get better faster) if I didn't feel the prevailing attitude of "the golf course is a man's last bastion."  Being made to feel unwelcome is difficult to ignore.  

And until that attitude changes, you won't see more women playing well or posting on GCA . . . because most of us are not rude enough to force our way in where we are not wanted. At least not often enough to get good.  I lurked here on the board for over a year before I posted anything.  And then was welcomed with such open arms I felt silly for having worried.

In truth, gentlemen, most of you have been welcoming and nothing but kind when you've seen me tagging along with a man.  My experience hasn't been quite so positive when I've been alone, but upon reflection most men I've encountered have been at least polite.  But it doesn't take but one-moaning-groaning-roll-your-eyes-I-have-to-play-with-a-woman   fellow to make me feel nervous the next half dozen times I go out.  

So, back to the original question, how do we get more women on GCA . . . I think if you welcome them they will come.  If you teach them what you know and talk to them about your interest in architecture they will learn and have intelligent things to say.  If you ignore them or disparage them they will not break down your doors.  

Which, if I read you correct, Dave, would be your preference.  

But then again . . . knowing you, I suspect you're just stirring the pot.  

[John_Cullum]

Whatever became of Margaret?

[Pete Buczkowski]

Let me also back up the position of playing with the wives.  Maybe I am a naive young married man, but some of my best times are out on the course with her.  My wife is not good by any accounts (30 hcp) but we walk 18 in 3.5 hours and she follows proper etiquette.  

To all those who laugh at these suggestions that men can enjoy playing with their wives...imagine your honeymoon where you hike two 36 hole days at Banff and Jasper...and then she discusses the architecture with you afterwards (even if some of it is superficial like "I love the glacier lake hole"  ).

That said, the typical male attitude that we get when paired up is tough to swallow at times.  9 times out of 10 we will take easily beat our unknown male playing partners in a fourball, but if they are riding carts it is almost inevitable to for them to scoff our way.  

Pete

[Doug Siebert]

Is there a single guy here who would intentionally take the very first Tuesday afternoon tee time behind 4 hours of packed womens' tee times on Ladies' Day at their club?   Anyone, Buehler, Buehler, Buehler??

I don't want to play after 4 hours of packed tee times regardless of who the people are.  But to tell the truth, I'd rather play behind 4 hours of Ladies' Day tee times than 4 hours of PGA Tour tee times.  Even with them playing as threesomes, I'd probably walk off the course once I realized I'd be enduring the typical 5 hour PGA death march.

And you know, watching someone bunt the ball 50 yards at a time doesn't really bother me so much, because I see them making progress.  The thing that drives me crazy is seeing a group ahead standing around and jawing instead of getting ready to play.  Its just too painful for words to see four guys on the green, all standing around watching one guy putt.  Once he's putted and they've got their comments in then the next time is told it is his turn, and only then does he decide to unmark his ball, line up his putt from both sides, take a few practice strokes and then finally pull the trigger.  On a course with fast greens a group like this can sometimes spend 10 minutes on the green.  I've NEVER seen a foursome of women take anywhere near 10 minutes to putt, but we've all seen guys do it.

Hitting lots of shots doesn't make for slow play, I'd probably put it 4th or 5th on the top ten list of reasons for slow play -- with one exception that carts can be a problem here, especially if they are cart path only.  On foot or pulling a cart, it isn't a problem if you hit the ball 50 yards each time, you can move along pretty good, but with carts it does slow things down.  Simple solution: ban carts!

[guesst]

Dave,
I do get unhappy when I have to wait.  Just last week we waited while the golfer in front of us . . . playing alone . . . played two balls.  Granted, he went back to one once we started pushing him, and tried to pick up the pace, but we dogged his tail until the waiting became so painful we asked to join him.  At which point he promptly stopped playing the white tees he had been playing, and moved to the blue tees. Groan.  So yeah.  I don't like to wait, but I've waited for many more men than women.  Of course, that's just my experience . . . I think because there are more men than women out there.

As far as women being "bad, generally" goes, I contend that PEOPLE are bad, generally.  You golf in rarefied air, my friend.  You and the people you hang with are single digit handicappers.  Most of the people who play golf are not.  I've met a half dozen men in the last two week who call themselves *golfers,* but none of them were good, and none of them were interested in architecture.  One invited me to play.  At first I declined on the grounds that I didn't know him well enough to hold him up.  His response was that he plays for fun, and didn't care if I was bad.  Turned out he plays a couple times a week . . . and he shot a hundred and twenty-ish.  I had fun, for the record.  But if anyone held anyone up, it wasn't me.  Most men are terrible golfers.  You (and most of the other fellows on here, I suspect) just happen to be fortunate enough to not have to play with them very often.  

If it's women's playing that is the problem (rather than your perceptions about their playing) how do we solve that problem?  Here's a clue.  You will never get better at tennis if you don't ever play.  We will never get better as long as we don't play, and we will never reach our potential (whatever that is) until we are welcome.  It's not a solution, but it's a start.  

*We* are not as good at The Game as *You,* I don't deny it.  (Although I was better than the nice fellow I played with on Wednesday . . . I have never lost a ball, except in water.  And I don't want to talk about that!).  Fortunately for me - and a million other women . . . and men! - so far 30 handicappers have not been banned from The Game.

Dave, I embrace your betterness.  I know how fortunate I am to have met so many good players.  And I could use another golf mentor.  If you're ever in the Vegas area . . . I promise not to hold you up . . .  

[Tom_Doak]

Shivas,

I just got back from a week in England where Don Placek and George Waters and I had to hustle our asses off to keep ahead of all golfers, men and women.  We had to let two ladies and a gentleman, all in their fifties or sixties, play through us at Westward Ho!, and we played in 3:20.

I might agree that women golfers in America are generally slower, although there are certainly exceptions to the rule.  [My first wife never broke 90, but she probably got around the course faster than you do.]  I think this has something to do with the fact that even a lot of American women who play golf don't really seem to enjoy the golfing part of it.  In Britain that's not the case at all, and from what I've seen the women play just as fast as the men.

I might have told this story before but it's one of my favorites so I'll tell it again.  Pete Dye told me the first time he arrived in Dornoch, back in 1963, was a perfect day for golf.  He and Alice met Donald Ross's brother at the club and talked over lunch, and by the end of it Pete was dying to get out on the course.  He saw three ladies come into the club and was trying to drag Alice out before they went off the first, but he couldn't, and he figured they'd be stuck behind them the rest of the day.

Pete and Alice teed off about twenty minutes later.  When they got to the third tee, he saw no sign of the ladies, and figured they must have quit.  But when he got to the sixth hole, those three ladies were coming down the eleventh fairway!

[paul cowley]

...go darva ....and if you are ever east of the mississippi ,i would love to play a round with you [in period attire if you prefer , circa 1690-1860]....in fact ,i am hosting a golf course opening /tournement/re-enactment july third in greenville s.c.
...weather permitting ,i might be wearing a great kilt and pampooties ,using play clubs from the early 1800's.
fireworks and fun in the fort will close the day or start the next...of course you will have to play with fellow GCAers...

....bring the family , you will be honored guests.

  this IS a serious   invitation  
  message me for details.

[Pete Buczkowski]

Shivas:

I always hear surprise from people when they hear that I enjoy playing (golf) with my wife.  I like to ask them if they like to play with their 12 year old son.  It must be the same feeling; I legitimately am happier when she hits a great shot than when I do.  

Pete

[TEPaul]

Shivas:

You may need to take a few weeks off and think about all this some more. It may not be the veneer of the PC phenomenon that you suspect makes most say they don't mind playing with women. Some just don't mind playing with women and  have always felt that way. Believe me, when a group of men get together at a golf club today some of the thngs they say about women golfers is no different than it probably was 100 years ago. Some today just don't mind playing with women as they didn't mind playing with women 100 years ago!

[Dan Herrmann]

Shivas, Heck - my wife doesn't prefer to play with women either.  Don't worry about being PC - you have an opinion, and you should share it!

With handicap, my matches against her are very fun and competitive.  She's the best, and a very fast player too - we played the front 9 at French Creek in 90 minutes one day after work last week (yes - we sinned and used a cart because it was so hot)

But, Shivas, I do know the type of woman you're talking about.  I remember one time a lady was incredulous because I didn't lay the flagstick at the proper angle on the green (whatever that meant!).

[guesst]

The question was, how do we interest more women in golf course architecture.  The answer is by making golf course architecture of interest to more women.  That can only happen if they play often (which will increase their ability) on courses that are architecturally interesting from the reds.  

I don't have a problem with you voicing your opinion, Shivas.  I think you're sorta cute!  But your opinion seems to be that golf . . . and by extension, golf course architecture and GCA . . . would be better off if the women stayed home.  Fine.  Voice away.  But not everyone agrees with that opinion, whether PC or not.  And it certainly doesn't present an answer to TP's original question, namely, " . . . how do we get more women to post on GCA?".  

The reason you are catching so much flak (at least from me) is that we are working from opposite ends of a problem.  I am trying to present a solution that would -- long term -- create better playing women with an eye for architecture.  You are saying let's not bother.  While your solution IS a solution of sorts, I don't think it's likely that the masses of women who are already playing are going to go away.  It's far more likely that the girls who are being raised on it will continue, and be better players than their mothers.

I say let's make women comfortable.  Let's teach them proper etiquette.  Let's discuss ground contour and bunker schematics with them.  And by the time our sons are grown the women will be better on average than they are now.  Part of that will happen anyway, just because girl's teams are stronger now.  But I say let's get Mom involved, too.  

And to help you get through your miserable day playing with a woman who can't hit out of her shadow, perhaps you can learn to ignore her sex . . . pretend she is someone's son or grandfather.  And enjoy the view . . . whether or not she is part of it.  

[TEPaul]

Shivas:

You've really got me pal, you've said some pretty odd things now and then on here but these statements of yours about how awful it is to play with women seem vaguely preposterous to me---I've played with plenty of women in my life and have never noticed anything particularly wrong with their play compared to plenty of men I've played with. Maybe you've just had a really bad run of luck in your life. Keep at it--I'll bet in the next half your life all the women you play with will be very fine to players.  

[Pete Buczkowski]

Shivas,

I certainly respect your opinion on the matter; just wanted to tell you that there are some men who enjoy playing golf with their wives, even though some cannot believe this could be true.

[TEPaul]

"Are we really thaaaaaat dumb?  I don't think so, but I could be wrong."

Shivas:

No I don't think you're all thaaaaat dumb. I think you're all even dumber than thaaaat!  Didn't you know that most men are rampant and virulent chauvinist pigs? There're very few like me who are calm and kind and sensitive to all women even those who can't play golf very well.      
 
Plus that day over twenty years ago when I hustled a couple of pretty good players with Robin Weiss where I put her back on the Championship tees and she waffled all of us on the flat was one of my finest acheivements in golf with a man or a women---so all women on the course are fine with me.
 

[guesst]

Tom, Thank you . . . you are a gentleman and a scholar, and I'm sorry we have not met.  I think I just figured out a new answer to your original question.  Forget about golf and golf architecture.  Just show your wife and all her friends Shivas' posts.  That ought to get them interested in GCA enough to muster up a response!  

[TEPaul]

Darva:

I don't believe I'd want to show any golfing woman Shivas's posts---it might be too much like peeling off a scab! But if he wants to show his posts to today's golfing women---fine!

I believe in peace and harmony on the proverbial golf course, not necessarily revolution or a rerun of it. It doesn't much matter anymore anyway---at many clubs, and in this world generally women now have men nicely outnumbered or the potential to do, if they choose---and there's power in numbers, or so I'm told. The effect of this, ideally, in my mind would be to afford Shivas the constant opportunity to say whatever he wants, even on a soapbox, but to just not necessarily have his opinion effect general policy and habit any longer. Even in our politically correct world I believe those who wish to be politically correct should be so, and those who don't care to be shoudn't have to be.

But you know what I say----"It's a great big world and there really is room in it for......"

[Scott_Burroughs]

Here's another story on the attitudes of cartballing young men and how 'fast' they think they are.

It was late afternoon on my home course and I had already played the back nine.  On our long par 5 first, I was about to hit my 2nd shot when two guys came racing down the hill in a cart and approached me.  They asked if they could drop two balls right here and play on through as they had to hurry to get back as their wives wanted them back soon.  Of course, I'm seething inside at their unbelievable gall.  But I calmly told them that if they went back to the tee and started from the beginning, that once I clear the horizon past the first green that they won't even see me the rest of the round.

They relented and went back.  Once I cleared the first green, they never saw me again.  Except where #8 parallels the 2nd half of #5.  I saw them coming off the 5th tee as I walked up #8.  Boy, they were really fast, weren't they?

Notes:

-They were NOT confined to the cart paths
-The 3 long walks on the course are between the first 4 holes, so those were my SLOW holes.
-I played through 2 groups on holes where they hadn't caught up to yet, so they weren't held up by anyone.

[Scott_Burroughs]

Dave,

Perhaps the stereotype created years ago got under women's skin and they learned how to fix it?  Now it's egotistical and ignorant men who would never believe in a million years that the problem is THEM.

I also get the feeling (through experience) that women are more likely to let you play through than men.  There are countless times I'm stuck behind men who can't believe that I'm faster than them and won't let me through.  How do they think I caught up to them so fast?  And don't any rules mavens quote the USGA book about 4somes having the right of way and singles having no right - I actually had a guy cite this as to why he wouldn't let me through.   This is rec golf and most clubs have house rules (usually on the card) about allowing faster players to play through, not to mention common courtesy.

I also had a guy all pissed off at me for not asking to go through, as I waited near the tee.  He's the one who is supposed to "allow faster players....".

But I digress.


Oh, and even if those guys weren't hacks, they still wouldn't have caught up to me.   I doubt they could play our front 9 holes in an hour and 10.

[ForkaB]

Scott

The new USGA/R&A rules have removed all references to "a single player has no standing."

All

I'll play golf with my wife over any man, any day.  Other than that, I'm easy, but if the woman (or man) doesn't have much game, they better have a damn good sense of humo(u)r!

[Scott_Burroughs]

Scott

The new USGA/R&A rules have removed all references to "a single player has no standing."

Good to hear.  

Single-hater Barney won't like it.

I read the by-laws of a new club (terrific course) that had the 'single has no standing' rule in there.

[Mike_Sweeney]

My point is and always has been limited to strangers that you have no connection with.  That is the sole point.  How do you feel when you and your buddy are on the tee at muni and 2 ladies with  plaid lime green bags show up to join you?  If you tell me you aren't cringing, I'm just not believing it!  That's all I've been saying.  

Shivas,

You need to get out of Chicago more. I once showed up by myself at County Sligo - Ireland for an afternoon game. My first partner was a guy from Jersey - standard stuff, and our "partners" were a French lesbian couple. Yes, one was Butch, but the other was 6 feet tall, blond hair, blue eyes and probably a 2-4 handicap with a beautiful swing. The Jersey guy and I (both married w kids) spent the whole time trying to figure out how to convert our partner, thus no swing thoughts and we played great.

I have had some great guy partners from this board and elsewhere, but none as memorable as Frenchie.

PS. Clearly I have been reading too many Tom Paul post, but this did really happen !!

[JakaB]

Single-hater Barney won't like it.

True I do hate singles that think they need to play every shot when going through a group...or even putt out for that matter.  I play as a single quite often....(most days in the winter I am the only person to play all day or all week...the ultimate single)..but when playing as a single and another group is on the course..I never and meen never play through or worse wait behind.....I either skip a hole, play backwards, play cross country or quit......Except at Barona...I never play to fast or to slow...I like to play just right or not at all.    It's the golfers not the game people..

[TEPaul]

"How do you feel when you and your buddy are on the tee at muni and 2 ladies with  plaid lime green bags show up to join you?  If you tell me you aren't cringing, I'm just not believing it!  That's all I've been saying.  

Jesus Christ Shivas--if that bothers you joins some private golf club that doesn't include the two ladies with plaid lime green bags. Otherwise just pay your muni fee as they did and live with it! What's the matter with you---do you think just because you can play better than they can your money means more to the course than theirs does?

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