What was Dev Emmet's role at NGLA

[T_MacWood]

George Bahto said that "Dev Emmet was a renaissance man, a golf designer and a close friend of Macdonald. He assisted CB in gathering information in the British Isles in preparation to building National - actually lending help in design and construction."

Pat Mucci doesn't believe him....what is the truth?

Personally I'm in George's corner on this one and believe Pat is uninformed, in fact I've read a number of articles that mention Dev prominantly.

From Golf Illustrated-UK (1907): "The idea animating the architects, who are Mssrs. CB Macdonald, Walter Travis, Devereux Emmet, and HJ Whigham, has been to reproduce, as far as possible, the characteristics and features from the 'best holes' in the world."

From Harpers right after the course opened: "Mr. Macdonald sought the advice of many well-known golfers, both at home and abroad; and in the actual work, he enjoyed the personal cooperation of Messrs. HJ Whigham and Devereux Emmet, both of them capable players and close students of the game. Following upon their united efforts a course has been evolved that certainly stands head and shoulders above any links on this side of the Atlantic."

[TEPaul]

Devereaux Emmet was one of the original seventy founders of the National Golf Links of America each of whom put up at least $1,000.

But as to Emmet's actual architectural contributions and those of others I'd tend to just go with the gist of what Macdonald said himself in his own book over magazine articles about the design and construction of NGLA.

"As I stated in my agreement to associate with me two qualified golfers in America, making a committee of three to carry out this general scheme, I asked Jim Whigham and Walter Travis as associates. Eventually I dropped Travis, and Jim Whigham and myself, with the kindly interest taken by Joseph Knapp, James Stillman, Devereaux Emmet, Charles Sabin, and others, forged ahead with the construction from the surveyors' maps and the thirty or forty drawings which I had made myself abroad of different holes which I thought worth while."

It looks to me like the one who helped Macdonald most with the design (and construction) of NGLA was Jim Whigham! Since Macdonald wrote his book in 1925-6 if Emmet had done more than Whigham or done more than "....with the kindly interest of...." one would certainly think Macdonald would've said so.

[T_MacWood]

TE
I agree it appears Whigham was Macdonald's right hand man at the time...it was around this time that Macdonald and Whigham were brought in to assist at Merion. But the question remains what was Emmet's role? In the early stages his name is mentioned prominantly and right after the course opened he is mentioned again....along with Whigham.

In 1926 Emmet was very ill...I believe he had a mental breakdown. He probably over worked himself.

[wsmorrison]

Tom,

I've read the brief line or two that refers to Hugh Wilson visiting Macdonald for two days at NGLA before his trip to the UK and that this was a great help to Wilson's future efforts.  I also read a brief reference that Macdonald and Whigham came down to Merion during its construction and pronounced their satisfaction with the work.  But please tell me how you conclude and in which way that Macdonald and Whigham assisted at Merion. Am I reading too much into this mention of yours saying that Macdonald and Whigham were brought in to assistat Merion?  

I'm sure that Macdonald's concepts were a great help to Wilson, Lloyd, Griscom, Francis, and Toulmin.  No doubt they offered advice about a great many things since Hugh Wilson and his committee were rookies at overseeing golf design and construction.  But please be clear.  Do you mean that Macdonald and Whigham were brought in to Merion and merit some design attribution?  If so, you need some proof.  If you are saying that they helped in general ways for a brief time, I think that is easier to conclude from what little information exists and I would agree whole heartedly.  If you know of documentation that shows Macdonald and Whigham were assisting in the design of Merion, I hope you'll disseminate this important information.  

There is a detailed article from the Philadelphia Ledger by AH Findlay dated August 23, 1912 where he attributes credit to Wilson and his committee and Fred Pickering (Flynn's brother-in-law) of whom he says ..."but this, his latest creation, far surpasses any of his previous achievements [Findlay mentions Wollaston, Woodland, and Belmont in MA; Lake Placid in NY; and Atlanta where Pickering it would seem was construction foreman as Findlay is credited with the design of the Lake Placid course].  He has had much of his own way in the planting of the right seed, and in the general make-up of the course, and to him we owe thanks for one of the prettiest courses in America."  If Macdonald and Whigham had integral roles in the Merion design, I doubt that Findlay, an architect himself, would have left that information out.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tom MacWood,

Like a woman scorned, you have to personalize everything, but that's okay, I understand you.

You haven't provided one shred of evidence to support your contention that DE was involved in the design and construction of the NGLA golf course.

Absent specific hole by hole, feature by feature documentation, this just seems to be another wild and erroneous conclusion of yours.

You see Tom, the drill is, you present the facts, then you draw conclusions.   You don't draw conclusions first, and then go searching for the facts.  I didn't know if you knew that.

[BCrosby]

Thesis:

Bobby Jones was involved in the design of ANGC.

Proof standard for thesis:

Specific hole by hole, feature by feature documentation.

Test of Thesis:

There is no specific hole by hole, feature by feature documentation of Jones' involvement at ANGC.

Conclusion:

The idea that Bobby Jones was involved with the design of ANGC is just another wild and erroneous conclusion.

Q.E.D.

[SPDB]

Bob - A good analysis.

Pat - On the other thread, I thought it was very odd that when Tom referenced the common knowledge of DE's "involvement at NGLA," it prompted the question from you "How exactly was Emmett involved with the design of each hole at NGLA, and the work in the ground at NGLA?" I don't think someone has to be involved in the design of "each hole" to be "involved." Nearly every contributing arch. at PV, save for, possibly Crump himself would be disqualified under your criteria.

Tom's asking a question prompted by some evidentiary support. These aren't "wild and erroneous conclusions," this is a legitimate question, please don't try to derail it. I, for one, am curious about it.

[TEPaul]

Tom MacW:

It seems to me back in that day (pre 1920s) at a few noted clubs, certainly PVGC and NGLA, the tendency among those creating the clubs was to say that a good deal of people took an interest in the architecture, made recommendations and collaborated. The early records of both clubs are virtual laundry lists of people mentioned collaborating----and almost every one of them was an amateur architect. The same is probably  true of Merion East, also built in that early era.

There may be a very good reason for this. Firstly, both Crump and Macdonald and Wilson (Fownes, Leeds etc) were basically into their first major quality efforts and they were also amateur golfers. Basically none of them had a reputation in golf architecture when these clubs were organized and going under construction (NGLA in 1907, Merion 1912 and PVGC 1913). In that day, and until 1921, you definitely had to be an amateur architect if you were interested in continuing to play amateur golf as almost every one of those men mentioned seemed to be interested in doing. The list of the architects from those clubs mentioned, and others like them, many now very famous, who never took a fee for architecture is long. This is true until the rules on amateur status and golf architecture payment was finally altered obviously allowing these men to take a fee although even after that many of them never did on principle, including Macdonald. Emmet did eventually though, but probably not as early as NGLA. The only exception of architectural professionalism, I’m aware of from those clubs in that early era was Colt.

Unfortunately, because most all that was done architecturally in those particular clubs seemed to be collaboration amongst amateur architects who were friends and fellow golfing companions there seems to be very little record left of who did what and where or when. Obviously with that kind of early modus operandi there were no contracts, few real professionally drawn plans (again Colt at PVGC being a notable exception). Things just sort of evolved and so we’ll probably never really know exactly who did what such as Dev Emmet at NGLA. The plans and drawings of courses like NGLA, Merion, PVGC, GCGC etc that exist today are generally “as built” drawings that in most cases were done some years after the course was done and in some cases by people who were not there during creation and construction.

[ForkaB]

".......and the thirty or forty drawings which I had made myself abroad of different holes which I thought worth while."

Tom

I find this interesting.  Are those 30-40 drawings of CB published anywhere, or even referenced?  How many different golf holes did they encompass?  Are they only different perspectives on the old standbys (Redan, Short, Alps, Road, etc.) or are there some there that McDonald liked but never actually got around to building in the US?

Just wondering.

Thanks in advance.

[T_MacWood]

Wayne
There were a number of articles at the time (American Golfer and Golf Illustrated) that describe the apparent arangement. There was a Merion committee responsible for the design & contruction of the golf course (headed by Hugh Wilson) and that committee was aided, advised or assisted (or whatever your term) by Macdonald and Whigham. I said they were brought into assist....do you disagree with statement? If nothing else the utilization of some prototype holes is evidence of a Macdonald influence.

TE
The USGA ruled paid golf architects were pros in late 1916 or early 1917. Travis and Tillinghast, two prominant amateurs, were both ruled to be professionals.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Bob Crosby & SPDB,

If someone makes the statement that DE was involved at NGLA, then the have an obligation to describe that involvement when questioned about it, and not just leave it as a nebulous unknown, and therefore an inaccurate statement.

Bob Crosby,

Your premise is seriously flawed and totally inaccurate.

MacKenzie wrote that Jones had made the most valueable suggestions in regard to almost EVERY hole.

He also wrote that he was convinced that from no one else in America or elsewhere could he have obtained such valueable help and COLLABORATION

Have you seen anything, anywhere that reflects a direct link, a confirmation from CBM that DE was involved in a hole by hole collaboration in the design and construction of NGLA ?

SPDB,

If someone declares that someone was involved with the design and construction of a golf course, don't you think that they have an obligation to define the scope and details of the involvement ?

Tom MacWood stated that everybody knew of DE's involvement at NGLA.   Apparently they left you and me out of the loop.

Facts should preceed conclusions, ergo, conclusions shouldn't be drawn absent the facts.

[BCrosby]

Pat -

I'm just applying your proof standard.

Sounds like you now think it is silly too.

Bob

[T_MacWood]

Pat
Did I say Emmet was involved in the design and construction of the NGLA golf course (much less the design and construction of every hole   )?

I believe you are confused...please re-address your comments to George Bahto.

So that this thread doesn't unravel into huge pissing contest...why don't you share your understanding of who did what at NGLA. Did Macdoanld do it all or was he assisted by others? Who helped him?

[TEPaul]

"TE
The USGA ruled paid golf architects were pros in late 1916 or early 1917. Travis and Tillinghast, two prominant amateurs, were both ruled to be professionals."

Tom:

And in 1921 the USGA ruled that being a professional architect did not violate amateur playing status.

[TEPaul]

Rich:

I don't really feel like copying from his book what Macdonald said about copying the holes he drew in Europe but his idea was not to exactly duplicate European holes over here but only to copy interesting parts of them, particular features and such or just whole concepts conceptually.

There seem to be some who think he tried to exactly duplicate whole holes from Europe and if those holes of his here are not exact duplicates some think there's something wrong with them. Exact duplication was never his purpose, only to copy by mimicing various features and whole hole concepts only to recreate certain types of playability and strategy.

And when he or Raynor kept reiiterating them on their courses over here they were always supposed to be different iterations, never exact duplications.

[Michael Dugger]

You guys turn these discussions into a freaking court of law with your burdens of proof and cross-examinations.

have fun

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tom MacWood,

You stated that everyone knew that DE was involved at NGLA.

I merely asked you to define the scope and details of his involvement.

Please elaborate on his actual involement at NGLA, including any design and construction work.

[HamiltonBHearst]

It may take a while, but we will enentually get to the facts on this one.  I will check back in a day or two when Mr. Macwood has provided a few details.

[ForkaB]

Tom P

I know at least as well as you the fact that Chuck used the olde world holes as templates rather than replicas, as I've seen more of them than you have.  You misunderstood my question.  I wanted to know if the 30-40 drawings he wrote of were published or referenced anywhere.

If you don't know the answer just say so.  "I don't know" is a very acceptaable response to an honest question.

If you do, I'd appreciate your telling us.

Thanking you again in advance......

[BCrosby]

Rich -

I recall reading references to those drawings by several of MacD's contemporaries. They were apparently contained in a sketchbook. But I also recall reading that the drawings themselves were lost at some point along the way.

Others may know more.

Bob

[TEPaul]

"In 1926 Emmet was very ill...I believe he had a mental breakdown. He probably over worked himself."

Tom MacW:

According to C&W Emmet won the Bahamas amateur at age 66 in 1926 or 1927 so he couldn't have been all that overworked or mentally ill!  

[TEPaul]

Rich:

I have no idea at all if Macdonald's original European drawings are published or referenced anywhere. My strong suspicion is they've probably been lost or I certainly would think that latter day alter ego of C.B's, George Bahto would've found them and used them in his book etc. George has said, unfortunately, that at some point in the last number of decades NGLA took most of the stuff collected from the history of their club and course and threw it in the trash!

The drawings I'd REALLY like to find our those of Hugh Wilson's as he spent 6-9 months over there studying and drawing golf holes and features (his itinerary must have logically been given him by C.B!). But we've searched high and low in every closet and source imaginable and they all seem to be gonzo. I suspect "Puffy" Wilson, Hugh's black illegitimate grandson might've sold them to go buy some great crack on a North Philly street corner.

[SPDB]

This is asinine. One of the interesting things about the website is the ability to get information from others who have better knowledge.

But this thread illustrates the narrow-mindedness that greets these inquiries, inquiries which could produce interesting answers. Why should people be discouraged from asking questions, just b/c someone disagrees with the object sought?

What we appear to have is a thread offering the question "What was Dev Emmet's role at NGLA," and the questioner, Tom M., is being taken to task for not supplying the answer or any information (although he noted some starting points, which gave rise to the question).

Isn't eminently clear to all who can form a single thought, that if Tom MacWood had this information he likely would supply it, and, more to the point, if he had this information he wouldn't have started a thread seeking an answer to a question he had already resolved.

[Patrick_Mucci]

SPDB,

Perhaps you missed it.

Tom MacWood stated that everyone knew that Dev Emmett was involved at NGLA.

I didn't know it, you didn't know it, and I'd venture to say, few, if any knew it.

So I asked Tom MacWood to provide details with regard to Dev Emmett's involvement at NGLA, especially any design and construction work, and to date he can't supply a single iota of fact to support his statement.   What does that tell you ?

As to your misguided intrepretation on the intent of this thread, go back and reread Tom MacWood's opening post, perhaps you missed it, it sheds light on Tom MacWood's motives for starting this thread, which are not as you stated.

[T_MacWood]

TE
I was wrong on the date of the nervous breakdown, it was 1932. The winner of the Bermuda Am was Devereux Jr, he was very fine player who won the Bermuda tournament in 1930 as well.

Pat
I mistated, not everyone is aware that Emmet was involved at NGLA. I figured the North Shore thread would attract interest from a very small sub-group on GCA, with a keen interest in the obscure of golf architecture history.

There is mention of Emmet's involvement in both C&W's The Golf Course and Architects of Golf and Shackelford's Golden Age. Have you read those books?