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JSlonis

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Changes ahead for Congressional CC Blue Course!
« on: October 27, 2003, 04:21:16 PM »
While playing in a tourney at Congressional this past weekend I saw a vote posted for the "reversing of the 18th hole" on the Blue Course.  I believe the vote has passed. I do not know exactly when or who will be doing the construction.  If I had to make an educated guess, I wouldn't be surprised if it was Rees Jones since he did the last major work to the course in the early 1990's.

Apparently Congressional is going to change the existing 18th(Par 3) hole as we know it.  The 18th hole is going to become the 10th hole and the hole is going to play in the opposite direction from where it now sits.  They are going scrap the current greensite...build new tees above the hill beyond the current 18th green and the new greensite will then be built on the opposite side of the lake down to the right of the current 17th green.  The current 10th (Par 5/4) hole will then become the 11th and the course will have the fantastic 17th hole as its 18th hole.  I'm sure changes are being made in hopes to land another US Open sometime in the future.

The Blue Course is an excellent test of golf and somewhat underrated in my view.  With the leaves changing, the vista from the top of the 17th fairway down past the 18th and up to the magnificent clubhouse is really one of the more impressive views in golf.
« Last Edit: October 27, 2003, 06:11:15 PM by JSlonis »

Bill_McBride

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Re:Changes ahead for Congressional CC Blue Course!
« Reply #1 on: October 27, 2003, 06:35:38 PM »
If the back of the new 10th green is built up as high as the back of the existing 18th green, that's going to be one hell of a hill on the right side of 17th hole (to be 18th hole) blocking the view of a lot of the clubhouse.  Just one possible negative, maybe they can build it a lot flatter into that downhill slope.

That will indeed be a much better finish.  I've played the Blue a number of times, and always remarked at how anticlimactic the par 3 18th was after the dramatic and exciting 17th.

They did something during the pre-Avenal Kemper days there to make #17 play as #18, but can't remember how they rerouted the course.  I think it had something to do with one or two holes on the adjacent Gold course.  Maybe someone can chime in here.  It did lead to a couple of exciting finishes.

JSlonis

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Re:Changes ahead for Congressional CC Blue Course!
« Reply #2 on: October 27, 2003, 07:28:42 PM »
Bill,

For the Kemper, they did use a couple of holes from the Gold Course so that they could finish on 17.

I don't think the plans are to build up the back of the new green so that it is like the current 18th.  From what I understand it will be a newly designed par 3 just going in the opposite direction.  There is plenty of room to build a great greensite into the existing hillside where the current 18th tees are located.  I will be interested to see the finished project.  I agree the 17th deserves to be the finisher.  The back left hole location we played on Sunday offers up one of the best 2nd shots you can play.
« Last Edit: October 27, 2003, 07:29:35 PM by JSlonis »

Bill_McBride

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Re:Changes ahead for Congressional CC Blue Course!
« Reply #3 on: October 28, 2003, 04:14:52 AM »
If I recall the last Open, isn't that where Monty met his Waterloo?

The rerouting will make a drastic change to a classic course but should be an improvement.  Does anyone know if the original routing was Ross, or did he work on the existing routing?

T_MacWood

Re:Changes ahead for Congressional CC Blue Course!
« Reply #4 on: October 28, 2003, 06:43:45 AM »
The course was originally Devereux Emmet...Ross was involved at some point but I think it was relatively minor, especially in contrast to what RTJ did in preperation of the 1960 Open. It was more or less a Trent Jones course after that point. Rees then made it more or less a Rees Jones course. To be fair it is probably an Emmet/Jones/Jones course...with Emmet perhaps getting credit for some of the routing. I wonder if Craig Disher might have an aerial of the old course.

Bob_Farrell

Re:Changes ahead for Congressional CC Blue Course!
« Reply #5 on: October 28, 2003, 07:38:28 AM »
Won't that rerouting severely limit the number of bleacher and corporate suites if their hope is to get nother Open?

I only played the course once, but as I remember the layout, if they do this there's not a whole lot of room left for seating is there?

BF

Sean Remington (SBR)

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Re:Changes ahead for Congressional CC Blue Course!
« Reply #6 on: October 31, 2003, 02:14:30 PM »
 I wonder if Arthur Hills may be involved with this change on the Blue. I think he had be retained to do some work on the Gold course. Anyone have the answer?

I does sound like an interesting change

buffett_guy

Re:Changes ahead for Congressional CC Blue Course!
« Reply #7 on: October 31, 2003, 08:10:31 PM »
I will never forget Tom Lehman putting it in the water on 17 while trying to make birdie at the US Open. I believe he was one back and needed the birdie. The hole was near the water and I believe he thought he hit a good shot - at least he acted like he did. He bent over with his head in his hands when the ball went in the agua.

Yeah, I think 17 would make a great finishing hole.

golfnooch

Re:Changes ahead for Congressional CC Blue Course!
« Reply #8 on: October 31, 2003, 10:43:46 PM »
I will never forget Tom Lehman putting it in the water on 17 while trying to make birdie at the US Open. I believe he was one back and needed the birdie. The hole was near the water and I believe he thought he hit a good shot - at least he acted like he did. He bent over with his head in his hands when the ball went in the agua.

Yeah, I think 17 would make a great finishing hole.

i was there, afterwards, lehman was quoted as saying that that shot was his bread and butter, a 7 iron with a draw into a tucked left pin.  He had hit this shot 1000 times before, and thought he had it when he struck it, only to be second guessed.

Im glad to see the change myself, i never liked an 18th hole as a par 3, to much finality to the tee shot.

Martin Del Vecchio

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Re:Changes ahead for Congressional CC Blue Course!
« Reply #9 on: November 01, 2003, 11:39:51 AM »
When the Kemper Open was played at Congressional, they used the club's 17th as the tournament's 18th.  I believe it was this way when the PGA Championship was played there in 1976 (Dave Stockton won at +1).

At the 1997 Open, there was a lot of ink spilled about how a par-3 finishing hole could actually work well, and that we shouldn't dismiss it because it wasn't traditional.  I remember clearly the lack of suspense as Ernie Els headed for the 18th tee.  Compared to the drama of the 17th, it was a big letdown.


Craig Disher

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Re:Changes ahead for Congressional CC Blue Course!
« Reply #10 on: November 02, 2003, 10:56:41 PM »
There's some of Emmet's routing left on the front nine but I can't see any evidence of his work on the back. The aerial is from the late 30s.

I wouldn't be surprised if Hills is asked to do the work. He rebuilt the bunkers and some of the tees on the Gold Course and continues to do a lot of work in the area.





T_MacWood

Re:Changes ahead for Congressional CC Blue Course!
« Reply #11 on: November 02, 2003, 11:38:06 PM »
Thanks for the aerial. I knew RTJ had made significant changes, I had not idea of the extent. There is almost nothing left of Emmet. It doesn't appear he made use of the lake.

Doug Braunsdorf

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Re:Changes ahead for Congressional CC Blue Course!
« Reply #12 on: April 30, 2004, 12:21:51 PM »
This is an interesting photo.  I'll have to ask around at work and see if there are other old aerials to be viewed.  I read somewhere that the original course had a 600 or so yard par 5 to start--this was probably carved up by RTJ to create holes 1 and 2 (the first two holes yardages adds up to about 600 yds).  
If you're in the area, and travelling on Persimmon Tree Road (it's the road running roughly left to right at the top of the picture), look at the corner of the property when coming from Bradley/TPC Avenel: there is an old green site there, ringed by bunkers (classic Emmet aerial approach hole) which is no longer in use.  This same green site can be found in the top center of the aerial photo.  
But you're right.  There really isn't much evidence of Emmet today, with the exception of the routing of the first nine.  I believe some original holes were used to create the Gold Course (not sure which, but I think a few which would be found on today's second nine of the Gold Course, and on the "main" part of the club's property (the club occupies a large piece of land bordered by River Rd on the North and Persimmon Tree on the south).  
"Never approach a bull from the front, a horse from the rear, or a fool from any direction."

rjsimper

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Re:Changes ahead for Congressional CC Blue Course!
« Reply #13 on: April 30, 2004, 02:43:44 PM »
One of my favorite under-rated courses...yes, its consistently top 100, but I regularly see it listed as one of the courses that people would replace on the lists...

17 will indeed be a SUPERB finishing hole, as it was in '64, but I didnt find the 18th to be as much of a letdown as others might- the view from 18tee is excellent, and its a heck of a par 3...too bad it didnt come elsewhere in the round...a good 16th hole I'd say...

I just hope turned around, the new 10th doesn't become a non-descript uphill par 3 that nobody really cares for and merely serves as a way to make the current 10th into an 11th without a ridiculous walk.


Doug Braunsdorf

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Re:Changes ahead for Congressional CC Blue Course!
« Reply #14 on: April 30, 2004, 02:49:28 PM »
Do you know when the work will be done, and by whom?  I work there, and I haven't heard any talk of the changes.  
"Never approach a bull from the front, a horse from the rear, or a fool from any direction."

Doug Braunsdorf

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Re:Changes ahead for Congressional CC Blue Course!
« Reply #15 on: May 02, 2004, 12:03:21 AM »
There's some of Emmet's routing left on the front nine but I can't see any evidence of his work on the back. The aerial is from the late 30s.

Craig-

  Leaving work tonight, I stopped to look at an old aerial photo in the hallway at work taken by (from the photo) some government agency, probably military, dated from 1923-right around the time Congressional opened.  If this photo was correct, and all notated holes were correct, then the course today is almost all RTJ; the map shows dotted lines highlighting each hole, although no yardages are given.   Greensites and bunkers can be seen with clarity.  
The first nine was in basically the same location, although the routing for each hole was different and a few holes are slightly different (for example, today's #5 was the original #2, played over the same basic hole layout, sweeping right to left) and the second nine went out from the clubhouse with a LONG par 5 (or maybe par 6 again!) and occupied the very back of the property, closer to Persimmon Tree Rd.  It looked like some of the holes on the Gold Course, specifically those on today's Gold Course second nine, were part of Emmet's original routing.  I also found out from an article that a lot of the land that is today's second nine of the Blue was used for fox-hunting and horseback riding. So I think it's safe to say the second nine is almost entirely RTJ.  
It also appeared that Emmet didn't use the lake for any holes, whether for a peninsula green or as a hazard to cross.  
It appeared that the original #9 was a par 3 playing back to the clubhouse, and #18 was a par 3 or short par 4 playing back towards the clubhouse roughly from the vicinity of today's 17th green on the Gold Course.  
To note, we have three greens for practice--one of which is a very narrow, three-tiered green (each tier is higher than the last); I wonder if this was perhaps the original 18th green.
I'm going to talk to some people and see what I can come up with--perhaps an old scorecard or routing.  I'm sure the club has Emmet's original routing somewhere.

I also saw some memorabilia from the '76 PGA that included a rough course map; the 16th and 17th holes were taken from the Gold Course, and the famous 17th on Blue played as the 18th.  

I'll post more information as I can find it.  

I'm not a huge fan of RTJ, but in my opinion, maybe he did change the course for the better.  It's a good course, certainly long and tough.  I seem to recall reading somewhere that he was hired to make it more conducive to hosting championships.

Again, I'll post more information related to Emmet and the architectural style of the original course as I can find it.  
« Last Edit: May 03, 2004, 12:54:34 AM by Doug Braunsdorf »
"Never approach a bull from the front, a horse from the rear, or a fool from any direction."

Craig Disher

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Re:Changes ahead for Congressional CC Blue Course!
« Reply #16 on: May 02, 2004, 10:33:18 AM »
Doug,
The 1923 photo sounds very interesting. I've been stymied trying to find early (1920s) photos of courses in the DC area and have had to rely on the 1930s photos available at the Nat'l Archives. Until the 1940s, DC was fairly rich in quality, classic-era designs and there is scant information available on them. At least I haven't been able to find much. Did the photo you mentioned indicate which government agency took the picture? Was it taken from an oblique angle or directly overhead like the one I posted earlier?

If you'd like, email me or send me an IM.

Doug Braunsdorf

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Re:Changes ahead for Congressional CC Blue Course!
« Reply #17 on: May 03, 2004, 12:50:39 AM »
 Ok, as promised in my post, I looked at the photo again.  It is dated 7/30/23, right around the time Congressional opened.  The aerial says "US Army Air Service" Bolling Field, Washington.  It is an aerial of the entire property (at the time) taken by a plane heading roughly north, with Persimmon Tree Road clear in the bottom of the picture, and what is now Bradley Boulevard to the left (West) in the picture.  It is interesting!  No yardages are given for the holes, but the layout is shown with dashed white lines an "Hole X" designations.  Bunkers, tees, greensites, and water features can be discerned from the picture.  
What I did in this email is use my current Congressional yardage book to compare to the aerial.  The Gold Course half of the yardage book also mentions "the original Congressional layout on the inner nine holes" which makes me believe that a lot of the current Gold Course was part of the second nine of the original Blue Course.  
The first hole was a par 6 (!) Here's one of Emmet's "quirks".  It appeared that there were bunkers flanking the drive zone which cut into the fairway, as well as a cross bunker about 2/3 of the way to the green (Emmet used crossbunkering extensively to my understanding).  I know this was a par 6 because another picture near the pro shop is from the '20s or '30s, of a grader being operated, with a caption reading "...the par 6 first hole".  
It's interesting to note that holes 1 and 2 today add up to a little over 600 yards.  The original first hole played in roughly the same direction as today's first hole.  (I'm playing the Blue course tomorrow (Monday, 5/3), so I will be able to get a better idea of the design of the greens, etc firsthand).  The original second hole looked, from the picture, to cover the same ground that today's 5th hole occupies.  Same fairway shape (big right to left sweep, however I couldn't discern any significant bunkering, with the exception of two greenside which appeared to be "C" and "reverse C" on either side of the green.  There are some mounds along the right side of the fairway on 5 which might be an original Emmet feature as well.  
The original 3rd hole looked to be a short/medium par 3, playing from the left of (original) 2 green away from Bradley Blvd. to somewhere between (current) 8 fairway and (current) 8 tee box.  
The original 4th looked to play from the left of (original) 3 green to somwhere near the current 7th green.  (away from Bradley Blvd.)
The original 5th went in the opposite direction over the same ground as the current 9th, and the original 5th green may have occupied what is now 9th teebox, or possibly today's 8th green.  (towards Bradley Blvd.)
The original 6th looked to be a long par 3 or short par 4, playing up the current 4th fairway.  
In my yardage book, there appears to be a greensite to the right of today's 4th teebox--might be an original greensite.  I'll look at this tomorrow.  
The original 7th appeared to be a medium par 4, playing towards Bradley Blvd.
The original 8th paralleled the first, and appeared to feature 2 cross bunkers in the fairway, one and then another closer to the green.  
The original 9th looked to be a par 3, playing back towards the clubhouse.  We have a few practice greens, and I wonder if one was the original 9th green.  It features several tiers and bunkers, but these could have been added or modified anytime.  

So it appears that RTJ used the original 1st and 2nd holes, and maybe parts of others, to create the current first nine of the Congressional Blue course.  

The original 10th looked to be a LONG par 5 (or another par 6?) playing away from the clubhouse parallel to, but running in the opposite direction, as today's 17th on the Gold Course.  It appears that the current 1st teebox of Gold may have been the original 10th teebox, from the picture and my yardage book.  The green looks to be in the same general location as the current 2nd green on the Gold Course.  
The original 11th looks to be the same hole as the current 3rd on the Gold Course.  Same direction of play, appears the same length (at my best guess).  There is an old picture of a par 3 in the card room of the locker room from before 1950 (from the appearance of the picture), could be the exact original hole.  The bunkering looks to be the same in the picture as is in my current yardage book.
The original 12th looks to occupy the same general ground as the current 4th of the Gold Course.  The fairway looks to have changed a bit--different shape to it.  Might be the same green.
The original 13th looks to be today's 5th of Gold.  From the aerial, both look about the same general distance.  Again, might be the same green.  
The original 14th looks to occupy the same general land as today's 15th of Gold, and direction of play is the same.  Again, maybe the same green.  
The original 15th looks to occupy the same land as today's 16th of Gold, and again, direction of play is the same.  Again, could be same green.  
The original 16th was a short par 3 to a green ringed by bunkers.  Your aerial shows this hole in the top center of the photo--look for a small green ringed with 3 bunkers.  This hole is still in existence today, but it is not used by either course.  You can see it from Persimmon Tree Rd.  
The original 17th of Blue looks to occupy the same general ground as today's 17th of Gold, and again, direction of play is the same.  
The original 18th of Blue looks to be a par 3 or short par 4, and plays in the same general direction as today's 18th of Gold.  A three-tiered practice green sits directly above the current 18th green of Gold.  I think this could be the original 18th green, but it's only a guess.    
« Last Edit: May 03, 2004, 12:58:15 AM by Doug Braunsdorf »
"Never approach a bull from the front, a horse from the rear, or a fool from any direction."

Doug Braunsdorf

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Re:Changes ahead for Congressional CC Blue Course!
« Reply #18 on: May 03, 2004, 01:01:08 AM »
If the back of the new 10th green is built up as high as the back of the existing 18th green, that's going to be one hell of a hill on the right side of 17th hole (to be 18th hole) blocking the view of a lot of the clubhouse.  Just one possible negative, maybe they can build it a lot flatter into that downhill slope.

That will indeed be a much better finish.  I've played the Blue a number of times, and always remarked at how anticlimactic the par 3 18th was after the dramatic and exciting 17th.

They did something during the pre-Avenal Kemper days there to make #17 play as #18, but can't remember how they rerouted the course.  I think it had something to do with one or two holes on the adjacent Gold course.  Maybe someone can chime in here.  It did lead to a couple of exciting finishes.

The Kemper at Congressional used the current 1st-15th holes of Blue.  The 16th for the Kemper was the 5th of Gold, and the 17th for the Kemper was the 15th of Gold.  15 green of Gold is directly adjacent to 17 tee of Blue--in fact, when playing Gold, there is a sign to watch for golfers on 17 tee of Blue.  17 of Blue was used as the 18th for the Kemper.  
"Never approach a bull from the front, a horse from the rear, or a fool from any direction."

Matt_Ward

Re:Changes ahead for Congressional CC Blue Course!
« Reply #19 on: May 03, 2004, 08:23:30 PM »
In all my times at Congressional -- either playing -- or in covering a few of the big time events held there ('95 Sr. Open / '97 US Open) I am simply amazed the course gets as much ink as it does. IMHO, there is little there that is truly memorable. To the benefit of the club they have milked the Venturi win in a wonderful manner.

The course has gone through more makeovers than Michael Jackson. It's always in a state of change. I don't doubt the course can be demanding but that can be said for a host of courses throughout the country.

Let's be honest -- Congressional benefits from being in the immediate area of the nation's capital. I don't see the "character" of the course because with each new event there's a desire to get rid of the old and replace it with something entirely new.