The Most Influential In The SouthEASTland

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Whose it going to be?

-George Cobb
-Ron Garl
-Art Hills
-Ray Floyd
-PGA Tour Design Services
-All of the Above


(Don't vote yet, because the candidates for this list will grow!)

[david h. carroll]

or Clyde Johnson, Ellis Maples, Dan Maples, etc, etc

[John_Cullum]

Pete Dye

[ChasLawler]

Dick Wilson and Joe Lee

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

I hate to say it but Fazio and Jack over the last 15 years. Ross before 1950 and Dick Wilson, Joe Lee and RT Jones from 1950 to 1985.

[ChasLawler]

I hate to say it but Fazio and Jack over the last 15 years.

Tiger - couldn't that be said about almost everywhere in the country over the last 15 years?

I agree with your statement though, and think Wilson, Lee and Jones have had the most impact on architecture in the southeast. While at the top of their game, all three of them could be very good; I still have to think it's their influence that paved the way for the plethora of utilitarian "Florida style" courses which dot the confederate states today.

[Joel_Stewart]

Define the Southeast?

Why not Donald Ross

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

Joel, he just did not have enough courses built in the south. this becomes even more evident west of Georgia. Many of the courses he built did not survive very close to original form as well. The Raynor course in New Orleans last until the early 1950's when Haas put his very poor footprint on it or should I say all over it. I define the South as the confederate states. One could argue that Florida outside the Panhandle does not belong. yes to the Jack and Fazio comment. I just not sure Dye is as strong here as some parts of the country. The Von Haggie shop has put the hurt on Texas as well.

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

Oh Tommy, that hurt. I did not see Art Hills and Garl on the first pass. That was a very low blow from the west coast. Makes one want to start chanting Robinson Robinson. lol lol

[Carlyle Rood]

Pete Dye has certainly been influential.  Donald Ross has work throughout the South.

In my estimation; however, Robert Tyre Jones, Jr. has had the most influence.  His collaborations at Peachtree and Augusta National have made ripples throughout the South.

And his affiliation with East Lake was the impetus for resurrecting its golf course and restructuring and rebuilding the neighborhood that surrounded it.  For that reason, perhaps Tom Cousins should be added to the list.  His social experiment with the East Lake community transformed a neighborhood with the highest concentration of crime in the nation, and transformed it into a thriving and inspiring community.  It is likely the most remarkable and positive contribution made in golf course architecture in the last ten years.

[Carlyle Rood]

I define the South as the confederate states. One could argue that Florida outside the Panhandle does not belong.

I concur.  Florida isn't vaguely Southern.

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

Carlyle, Are you trying to argue that the South is restrictively defined by where the Bulldogs roam free? I hate to say it but those thoughts did not make it over here to any significant extent. By over here, I mean west of Birmingham or southwest of Montgomery. I say that even with the lasting influence Coke and Delta had on Atlanta's growth and the companies influence on the south.

[Bill_McBride]

Carlyle, that statement about Florida needs to be at least partially retracted.  Anyone who has spent any time at all in the Panhandle of Florida knows we are LA.  Lower Alabama.  Any resemblance to lower Florida (ie anything south of a line drawn from Pensacola to St Augustine) is purely coincidental.  The main difference is that the Panhandle is the summer resort for the deep South, while the rest of Florida is the winter resort for the Northeast.  It's just a whole different mindset and clientele.  Not that there's anything wrong with that!

Here in the Panhandle we do have a fairly tepid array of pretty good golf courses by some nationally known architects.  Jerry Pate - Kiva Dunes and Tiger Point.  I played his Steelwood course Saturday and it is a legitimate handful.  Palmer Design - Craft Farms.  Tom Fazio - I get fuzzy here.  Burnt Pine I think is Rees but could be Fazio.  Camp Creek is Fazio.  Kelly Plantation is Fred Couples "signature."  The Shark over by Panama City is Greg Norman and supposed to be pretty good.

Pensacola CC is 1925 "Donald Ross influenced."   According to Brad Klein, he never stopped in Pensacola although he was travelling through the town while working at Mobile CC in ----- 1925!  Sixty miles west.

Tommy, I'd rather play any of the above than Pelican Hill, and each costs about half.  

[John_Cullum]

I'm sticking with Pete Dye. I considered Ross, but I don't see where Ross INFLUENCED anything in the Southeast. Alot of his Southern Courses were likely topo routings and he may have never set foot on the places.

Pete dye designed Harbourtown, and following that railroad ties appeared everywhere. Then came TPC Sawgrass, which has had nationwide influence.

[Carlyle Rood]

Carlyle, that statement about Florida needs to be at least partially retracted.  Anyone who has spent any time at all in the Panhandle of Florida knows we are LA.  Lower Alabama.  

The Panhandle is like Taiwan.  It is its own territory, though not politically recognized as independent by its ancestral government.

[Carlyle Rood]

Carlyle, Are you trying to argue that the South is restrictively defined by where the Bulldogs roam free? I hate to say it but those thoughts did not make it over here to any significant extent. By over here, I mean west of Birmingham or southwest of Montgomery. I say that even with the lasting influence Coke and Delta had on Atlanta's growth and the companies influence on the south.

Not suggesting that.  However, Pinehurst (the Ross designs) has had tremendous influence on golf course architecture throughout the South.  And though it's not west of the Mississippi--and neither is Augusta National--its influence is felt throughout.

[BCrosby]

There are two distinct SE's. The Piedmont (clay soil) and the littoral areas (sandy soil), which includes all of Florida.

Ross is still the dominant style in the Piedmont. He may not have overseen the construction of many of his courses there, but he is still very much with us. The Maples, Byrd, Cobb,  even Wilson/Lee took a lot from Ross when they worked in clay soils.

In fact, I think P'hurst, East Lake and Seminole were easily the most influencial courses in the region. (Much more influencial than ANGC.)

Our very own Mike Young works in the Ross tradition and has done over 20 courses in GA, and lots in Miss and LA.

As for the coastal regions, I'll go with Pete Dye. Harbor Town changed everything. The Golden Agers at Sea Island or Ponte Vedra didn't have anywhere near as much influence.

Bob

[Anthony_Nysse]

I agree with Jon-Pete Dye. Pete first did Harbour Town, the first big course in the SE since ANGC, then came TPC with blew people's minds away because just as HT was, TPC was something unlike anyone had seen. Then come Long Cove and 10 years later, The Ocean Course....That's basicly one show stopper every ten years....

[Steve_Lovett]

Moving to Florida from the west 5 years ago - trust me FLORIDA IS (at least vaguely) SOUTHERN!

I'd say Pete Dye - for better or worse...   If for no other reason the introduction of Railroad ties in golf course design.  Before the TPC Sawgrass Railroad ties were rarely, if ever, introduced on a golf course (aside from other less heralded Dye courses - e.g. Harbour Town).  Since - RR ties have become an overused design gimmick extending far beyond the southeast...

Bobby Jones clearly wins in Atlanta - Ross in Pinehurst - Wilson in much of Florida...

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Panhandle Bill,
I would probaby join you!

Better yet, lets forget all of that junk and just play VCOM!

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

It does seem the south is more than just the confederacy. I forget the Piedmont is really the south or should I say the deep south like the SEC. Not that basketball happy ACC.

[david h. carroll]

I think Tommy was poking fun at another thread while also posing what turns out to be a good question....but as we've considered the Florida angle and the "influence" angle, is this actually a post about prevalence and not influence??  I can't believe that any of us could argue the influence of George Cobb without a wry grin....unless of course, we're discussing the merits (demerits) of Sea Pines style resort golf!!  Now, as to Florida, I recently had the pleasure of playing Ross' Timiquanna(sp?) and if that and Pinehurst aren't the e[itome of good "suthern" golf, I don't know what is.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

David,
It was actually a 50/50 thing hoping it wold spur discussion.  Their Southland needs discussion like our Southland needed discussion.

[Scott_Burroughs]

According to golfcourse.com, there are 120 current Ross courses in the southeast, although I'm sure a few of those aren't correct on their design heritage and some may have been different 18 hole combinations on 27 hole courses.

I'd say he had at least some influence.  There may not be any other architects who designed more in the SE.

EDIT:  It's embarrassing when I catch myself in homonym errors much later after others have had a chance to see them.

[John_Cullum]

I've been thinking more on this thread. One thing I have noted in THE South is an abundance of push up greens. I guess this could be some Ross influence that is very widespread.