[Geoff_Shackelford]

Tom,
I'd vote for Mr. Bell since he was largely responsible for taking Thomas's courses to another level, while also doing some outstanding work on his own. The combination of the two men and their crew was something special as evidenced by their five most revered early works, La Cumbre, Ojai, Bel Air, Riviera and LACC North (the redo).  Brilliant strategy, amazing construction work, all so sound and at the time (or since!), unlike anything ever built before. Bell's work on his own appears to be just as attractive and artfully-constructed, though lacking the strategic flair that the Thomas courses demonstrated.

Ian,
The club's own archives include many of the articles I dug up and which they had for years. They spell out this scenario which is repeated in the club's own history by Robert Windeler: the current site was originally Fowler routing/design with Thomas carrying out the plans on site around 1921 when he was the new member in town, with Thomas-Bell renovating the courses significantly starting after Riviera was complete and ending with Thomas's passing before he could redo the South Course.

To say that Thomas was carrying out Fowler's plans in the late 20s is wrong. It would mean that Thomas's article about the "multiple courses within the course" is pure fiction and that he had many collaborators in the local media mischaracterizing his efforts. I know from watching the "restoration" at LACC that this information wasn't of much interest at the time of the project. It's too bad, what a wasted opportunity to restore something unique in the world of golf.
Geoff

[Tommy_Naccarato]

This concerned me too when Ian first posted it, and frankly, it doesn't surprize me one bit.

Ian, On next trip out there, I'll show you some old bunker carcases from the Fowler routing which went into a whole different direction then Thomas's (@ #5)

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

Excuse us! The guys from the south are reading this too. Southland would mean by most definitions the south, not Southern California. So, I would say Dick Wilson, Joe Finger, Joe Lee and Robert Trent Jones Sr. One could argue Ross but I feel he had to few courses west of Georgia to make the case. I will say Thomas as the answer to the mislabled thread herein.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Tiger John,
"The Southland" is a term that most from California call Southern California. It is used in the same verve as "The Low Country," "The West Country" "The Highlands", or as most of you from "The South" are called by the Yankees of the North, "Hicksville."  

Don't blame the Damn Yankees, blame the movie "Deliverance!"

(That should get the spirit of the thread going at a very nice pace!)

BTW, My Great, Great Grandfather was a riverboat pilot for the Confederacy out of Memphis, Tennessee. I have both sides in my blood.
 

[THuckaby2]

Mr. Naccarato is correct for the most part in his explanation of California-ese.  Of course most in the better part of the state call it "the part I wouldn't live in if you paid me", but that's a different issue altogether.     The "Southland" would cover basically anything from Santa Barbara to the border.

Interesting though... if I was a gazillionaire and could pick anywhere in this great state to live... and yes I would stay in this great state... it would also be Santa Barbara.  I believe I could be quite happy with a Valley Club membership, then as for living, we'd have a bit of the far superior NorCal feel there in SB, and be close enough to get to Dodger Stadium, which I do sorely miss now.  We'd also be close enough to the Monterey Peninsula to satisfy any cravings about that.

Now back to your architectural discussion, in which I obviously have nothing worthwhile to input.

 

TH

ps - quite enjoyable baseball series this weekend... I was in attendance on Saturday... oh yes, it was fun to feel palpable agony from 42,000 as the game ends with Bonds on deck.  Then to have the same thing happen Sunday... ahhh, baseball life is good right now.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Huck, I'm with you all the way on that one! One of the most enjoyable baseball weekends I have had in a long, long time!

Were there any suicide attempts at any of the local bridges?

[Bill_McBride]

Huckster, Santa Barbarans prefer to think that Southern California starts around Ventura and that they can identify themselves more with Northern California.  This of course breaks down when some of the less enlightened also identify with the Dodgers, Lakers, maybe the Angels, and even some diehards the hated Rams.

But can you blame them?  Santa Barbara is overrun by Hollywood types from LA every weekend.  It's a nightmare!

Take that, Tommy!  "Hicksville" indeed!  

[THuckaby2]

Bill - oh yes, I am aware of Santa Barbarians identifying more with the better part of the state - that's why I said it had the NorCal feel...

And I can obviously identify with being a conflicted sports fan.  Try rooting for the Dodgers living in San Jose.  It is a lonely existence.  Now even my own kids are against me... they are Bay Area kids for sure and that means they are Giant fans.  In a way I am proud of them for sticking with their home... as much as it pains me to see them on the wrong side.

 

And Tommy, there sure was wailing and gnashing of teeth up here... my God was it cool leaving Bonds in the on-deck circle both Sat and Sun... having him at his best and all it meaning is 3 losses for the Giants...

This could be a VERY good year.  But way too early to get too excited.

TH

[Tommy_Naccarato]

I couldn't agree more. Its way too early, but its a Hell of a lot of fun!

Panhandle Bill,
Trust me when I say this, I envy anyone that lives in the SB area, even if its in Carpenteria! (a Hicksville if there ever was one, at least a Santa Barbara Hicksville!)

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

Tommy, As long as Mississippi is a state it will be last. The expression "Lester you are living proof that cousins should not  F____ " was from the great movie Mississippi Burning. I am glad that California-ese has such expressions as "Southland". However please do not make such wonderful expressions as those damn yankees or yankees ____ part of some lingo claimed by that great state on the west coast. We reserve the right to keep personal those feelings which flow from generations economic suppression that contributed in part to the lack of Tillie, Ross, Mac, Mac D and Raynor courses in our part of America.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tommy Naccarato,

My ex-girlfriend was from Carpenteria, as are clients of mine, so be careful.

Didn't you also surf Rincon ?

[Bill_McBride]

Tommy, you haven't been paying attention to Carpenteria your last few trips north on 101.  My architect buddy in SB designed ten houses on Padero Lane that sold for more than $2 million each!  Housing prices have skyrocked and Carpenteria is now cool!    But no decent golf there, get to work on that!

[ian]

Geoff,

Thanks for the clarification on the course. I appreciate the information you have passed on. I have not got a copy of the Captain, but I will fix this error in the next couple of weeks. I'm sure this will explain more about Thomas's wonderful body of work.

Gentlemen,

Don't jump on John, this is my fault for sharing that note, leave him out of this. I'm the idiot in this case.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

No, quite obviously I haven't been paying attention to Carpy lately, but the last time I spent the night in the SB area was in Carpinteria at a flea bag motel off of 101 and I ended-up getting a hell of a cold/flu that hit with-in an hour after I got into the room. Didn't feel a thing coming-on and then all of a sudden-Wham! I looked like the Living Dead.

Kye Goalby may want to comment on how I looked the following morning when I picked him up at his really nice and clean Best Western.

Pat, I did in fact used to surf Rincon, right there with all of the oil wells...and sharks......For some unknown reasoning, Ventura/Oxnard gets a lot of sharks on there beaches, and at Rincon, they hang out there, and usually everone gets out of the water when they see them.  I don't like sharks.

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