Who was the most influential in the Southland?

[T_MacWood]

Who had the biggest...most positive impact on golf architecture in S.Califronia. Who is the best architect in S.Cal history:

a.Thomas
b.Bell
c.Behr
d.Watson
e.none of the above

[Bill_McBride]

Would have to be George Thomas, with Riviera, Bel Air, LA North, Ojai, La Cumbre, plus his design influence on Billy Bell Sr.  Too bad Dr MacKenzie didn't get more opportunities in Southern California, his Valley Club is my personal favorite but that's it for south of Cypress Point.  

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Bill,
He was also at Redlands.

Tom Mac,
What are you trying to do, give me a heart attack!?!?!?!?!

Actually, that question maybe close to unanswerable, but as far as stuff that has survived and stood the test of time, quite obviously Thomas, but Behr's work was certainly in the same league. Just a bit more understanted because were only finding out how just now great he really was.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Also, you forgot Norman MacBeth. He deserves to be in the group also.

[Jeff Fortson]

As does Ted Robinson.  

Goodnight!


Jeff F.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

ARGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The sound of that name makes me want to go into Cosmo Kramer-like convulsions everytime he heard the name Mary Hart!

[Wayne Freeman]

no question here-  Thomas' creations at Riviera, L.A. North, and Bel Air are timeless so I would vote for him.  Bell has definitely left his mark here especially with regard to the common man, as his public courses (like Torrey Pines and Sandpiper) are solid.  

[Bill_McBride]

Tommy, tell me about Redlands, I am completely in the dark about this course.  How did Thomas get out there?

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Bill,
I was refering to MacKenzie. He did Redlands. Butthere is another course that Thomas doesn't get much credit for since there is very little of it left and that is Redhill.

Not a lot of guys are going to even really knwo who Max Behr was, but I have him on a pedestal. We were lucky that we had him, and now there is nothing left to really show.

[Evan_Green]

If one goes by what exists today- I would have to think Thomas would win by a landslide given LA, Riv and BelAir- only other course I would think that would be in that league would be Valley Club.

While they are very good courses, I dont see Torrey or Sandpiper in the same rarified space as the 4 mentioned above

[DMoriarty]

no question here-  Thomas' creations at Riviera, L.A. North, and Bel Air are timeless so I would vote for him.  Bell has definitely left his mark here especially with regard to the common man, as his public courses (like Torrey Pines and Sandpiper) are solid.  

Wayne,  If  you think Sandpiper is a course for the common man lately, you must be getting raters' comps.  Not many common men I know can afford to play Sandpiper much.   Same goes for Torrey, unless you limit your 'common men' to San Diego.

Anyway, I think you've rung the wrong Bell, assuming that Tom meant the Bell of the same era as the others listed.  Sandpiper and Torrey were done by the son of William P. Bell.  IMO the apple fell a little too far from the tree.  

[DMoriarty]

I guess Thomas wins by virtue of the big three.  But we should note that Thomas didnt do diddly without WP Bell.  Watson worked with WPB, also.   In fact if you give me odds, I might wager that Tommy will soon discover that WPB worked with Behr as well.  (No facts, just a hunch.)  There is an old photo of Thomas, MacKenzie, and WPB and in my opinion that about covers it for Southern California.  But then I havent seen much Behr, except from the freeway in Montecito.  

[Patrick_Mucci]

Was MacKenzie's work not up to par in Southern Cal

Or, what defines Southern Cal ?

[DMoriarty]

Patrick, more a matters of numbers than quality, I think.   There just isnt enough MacKenzie down here, even counting The Valley Club.  

[Thomas_Brown]

I'd be curious to learn from Tommy what changes have eliminated MacKenzie's hand from Redlands.  I've heard the same comments before, but have never heard the chronology.

The one short par 3(16th hole?) has to still be pure Mackenzie.  That green is really something.

[Bill_McBride]

Pat Mucci, I've played quite a few very good courses, and the Valley Club in Montecito is the one I would play exclusively for the rest of my life if forced to make such a choice!  It's that good - unforced use of great topography and a large creek / barranca which runs through 12 of the holes.  And of course a fabulous 12 month climate.

Of course another MacKenzie gem 200 miles north makes the Valley Club a difficult choice!

[Tommy_Naccarato]

David,
If you remember, I was the one who told you I had thought that Bell did Max's construction work. Not anymore though. I think they were both competitors in the same market. although I don't think Behr was as commericially successfuly nor wanted to be. I do think though that Bell did remodel some of his courses later on.

Patrick, usually, and this is how the SCGA/NCGA splits it up, usually from SLO across to Bakersfield up to Mammoth and Bishop. Both associations offer discounts at their members clubs. As far as the quality of work, well, I think its all just evolved so heavily in the wrong direction. Redlands was clueless to their link with Mac up until a few years ago, and when they fnally somewhat realized the importance, they made some horrible decisions. They simply just didn't know.

I recently found out that MacKenzie and Robert Hunter surveyed the lands around Dana Point for a golf course, and while I have yet to find any more information then the developer (the same guy that built "Hollywoodland" which is the reason for our famed Hollywood sign!) exclaiming the Good Doctor's thoughts, I must say it does stir some pretty strong romantic notions that it could have been another great golf course in the MacKenzie portfolio--one of SoCal's Greatest that never was!

Thomas,
You would be talking about the 15th green at Redlands, and only part of it is original as the ack was changed quite dramatically in the late 50's/early 60's. It featured even more of a tilted green facing the tee, and it just got too fast for the members in the winter. They altered the 15th, 5th and 8th green dramatically from the originals because of green speeds and utilized people as obscure as a local San Bernadino driving range professional to oversee the work. I think you can determine for yourself how the work came out.

The construction of Redlands was overseen by Norman MacBeth, who built it according to MacKenzie's plans. It is clearly evident at the 17th green, a wonderful horseshoe that must have been really something in its day.  So much of the course has changed, it just has lost its edge, and it soon, once again will lose more of the history that was once there.

Bill, I'm like you. I love SoCal as my home, and if given the choice to spend the rest of my days in California, I'm going to pick the Valley Club simply because I could golf in the morning and go to a Dodger game in the evening!

[Carlyle Rood]

I thought I lived in the Southland.  Since when did California annex Georgia?

Carlyle

[ian]

Would this effect the arguement about Thomas?

John Harbottle passed this on with a few other notes about LA CC.

"The 36 hole layout was designed by Herbert Fowler.  In the late twenties Thomas (a member at the time) redesigned and built the two courses using Fowlers plans."


I'm not from SoCal, so I'm in no position to have an opinion.

[paul cowley]

...i think you are onto something carlyle...which would help to explain why i always assumed pebble beach was on the atlantic....maybe california is on the atlantic !!!!!!!!

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Would this effect the arguement about Thomas?

John Harbottle passed this on with a few other notes about LA CC.

"The 36 hole layout was designed by Herbert Fowler.  In the late twenties Thomas (a member at the time) redesigned and built the two courses using Fowlers plans."

I'm not from SoCal, so I'm in no position to have an opinion.

Ian, did John pass this on to you about this thread? If so, it is flat-out wrong.

George Thomas oversaw the changes to LACC from Fowlers original plan. I will have you a timeline of this later.  In the late 1920's, Thomas with Bell instituted a many changes, and I state this in capitals again so he can read it in Seattle, MANY changes to the original Fowler design.

Off of the top of my head the changes were to holes 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12,13,14,15,16, & 17 with bunkering changes to 18.

[ed_getka]

There is still hope for Redlands to come back. Mike DeVries is slated to do some work there. I haven't seen the course at all, but hopefully I'll get down there when Mike is at work to see the transformation.

[T_MacWood]

The Bell I listed is the old man...Billy Bell. I can't argue with Thomas be the biggest influence, but I think maybe Bell doesn't get the notice he deserves. In fact I wonder if he may not be the most under appreciated architect of that era--anywhere. I've always thought of him as Thomas's construction guy, but he was much more than that.

I've not been able to figure out exactly what Macbeth did back then. I think Fowler had a big influence, if nothing else getting Thomas into the flow. It seems to me if there was a father of S. Cal golf it may have been Watson. I'm not certain how JD Dunn fits into the scheme of things. It doesn't appear Behr was as active as some of the others. My impression is the best architect (and biggest influence) was probably Thomas, than Bell...but then again it might Bell, then Thomas.

I haven't been able to find out what Macbeth did at Annandale (if anything). The original course (from what I understand) was designed by group of local pros, and Watson constructed it. Then Watson redesigned it around 1917 adding grass greens (Bell carrying out the work). Then around 1923...the four new holes were added by Bell along with evidently some bunkering (over 100 new bunkers). Depsite the changes it appears the course was considered by most as a Watson design...it probably would have been acurate to call it a Watson/Bell design.

S.Cal golf is complicated and hard to figure out...for me anyways.

[ian]

Tommy,

"Ian, did John pass this on to you about this thread?"

No he did not.

That was part of his reply to a series of my questions about the course. I posted it exactly as written on the e-mail. I don't know the history, but thought it was an important piece of information. They apparently have quite a bit of archival material.


Ian

[DMoriarty]

"The 36 hole layout was designed by Herbert Fowler.  In the late twenties Thomas (a member at the time) redesigned and built the two courses using Fowlers plans."


This is more than a little frightening!  Did Mr. Harbottle III think he was working on a Fowler design, or is there some context to this quote which hasnt been supplied?  

Yikes.