Golf Architectural Archives

[GeoffreyC]

I fully agree with Michael, Bob, Brad, Wayne et. al.

It's hard to pull the wool over a membership's eyes if thr original plans, photos and documents are available.

Also, lets not forget that Linc Roden I believe first identified all that material in the Gordon barn and he went out and actually used the plans to recreate/build the "C" nine at Huntingdon Valley which had been abandoned for over 60 years.

Perhaps there will be another "C" nine situation out there.  Without the original plans that could never happen.

[wsmorrison]

Bob,

Some non-profit should take up the cause or be created to be a clearing house for golf architecture drawings and other related archival materials.  Original documents can be sent there to be digitized and files created.  Afterwards, the originals can be returned with a disk containing low and high resolution images.  The originals won't have to be handled so often and with imaging programs, as you said, the digitized versions would be better for study than the originals as they would be clearer, creases and tears can be "fixed", and easily magnified.  Individuals, clubs, and institutions can access the materials either low or high resolution and payments made to have copies produced or disks provided (where appropriate) for a fee that can help cover operating expenses.  You and I have talked about this in the past.  There is no doubt that it is essential to get something like this organized.  How to do so is the question.  It would have to be a comprehensive collection so that collectors would be willing to share their materials.  Of course, if the end result is that the materials would lose value (I don't think this is the case) then there's little chance collectors would assist in the project.  I'd like to see momentum on this issue and am willing to put in an effort to help.

From a practical standpoint, most of the architectural drawings are large for typical scanners, even hole drawings (Flynn's are usually 21" x 13").  Drum scanners cause a great deal of damage to fragile papers, even linen can be compromised.  There is a shop in Springfield, PA that has the largest flat bed scanner I've seen.  I use him for all high quality scans.  He can do anything from 6 feet high by almost any length.  Since its a flat bed, it doesn't endanger the materials.  This fellow built it himself and it is awesome.  For facsimile results, it takes several hours to scan a 5' x 4' routing map and more time to print with 150 year minimum inks.  There's quite a good one in Cleveland as well.  If anyone has access to the clubhouses at Shinnecock Hills, The Country Club in Pepper Pike, and The Creek, you'll see the quality of reproductions we've done.

Regards,
Wayne

[wsmorrison]

Geoff,
Right you are.  I just spoke with Linc this morning.  There's no way the C-Nine could have been done without the Flynn drawings in the Gordon barn.  I sent Linc a 1940 aerial photo of the C-Nine (courtesy of CDisher) which would've proved helpful even though the course was already abandoned for a number of years.  He did have the Hagley aerials and those combined with the drawings made the incredible results at Huntingdon Valley possible.  Well those and an outstanding effort by Ron Prichard and the folks at HVCC.  Hope to see you soon!  Why don't you make plans to visit soon?
Best,
Wayne

[Mike_Young]

Bob and Wane,
I have a "E size" scanner that I will donate if you guys can put it to use.  Bob and I were discussing this morning and it seems that the FTP sights should make digitizing and storing much easier than we might imagine.

[Mike_Young]

Wayne,
Sorry about mispelling name in post above.
Mike

[GeoffreyC]

Wayne

I hope to get down your way more then once this year. There are several places I'd like to see for the first time and perhaps a second visit. I'll get in touch soon.

HVCC sets the standard on so many issues from maintanance to restoration.  Might there be any new Cinderella stories out there where plans could be used to recreate a long lost golf course?

Paging Daniel Wexler.

[wsmorrison]

Mike,
No worries, I didn't even notice.  Is  an "E size scanner"  a flatbed and what size documents can it scan?

Geoff,
Looking forward to it.

[wsmorrison]

Geoff,
I would absolutely love if we can ever resurrect the new course (planned in 1926 construction ended during 1929) at Eagles Mere in upstate PA.  What a great design lost after 9 holes completed and the other 9 cleared.  Some of the boldest routing I've ever seen.  The loss was a direct result of a course that wasn't able to survive the depression.  Glad the old course there did survive!  Don't be surprised if someday a different lost Flynn is conceptually recreated.  A boy can dream.....
Best,
Wayne

[Mike_Young]

Wayne ,
It is a scanner that does up to 42 inches wide and has a flat table whereby the drawing is fed thru the scanning part of the scanning part of the machine.
Mike

[michael j fay]

Mike:

The Tufts Archives is thrilled to be given a scanner large enough for course maps. it should be an invaluable tool.

Thanks from The Donald Ross Society as well.

Mike Fay

[Mike_Young]

Glad it could be put to use.
Mike

[Jim Thompson]

For those who feel that copies of documents are of great monetary value I am willing to entertain offers on my copies of the Declaration of Independence and the Gettysburg Address.  I also have copies of very highly coveted Confederate Currency, some even in high denominations.  They are even reproduced on parchmentesque paper.  I know that since these items have been in circulation the originals are currently held as being of little or no value.

Information is Value.  A lesson learned as I watched alleged scholars fund the completion of the Ludwig Von Mises Austrian Economics Liabrary at college.  The entire and complete collection and wing was build on 25 cents a copy.

Food for thought,

JT

[wsmorrison]

Jim,

Who thinks that copies would be of great monetary value?  The question is does a proliferation of copies detract the value of the originals?  If so, collectors might horde their materials and be less inclined to have them reproduced either in digital files or hard copies.  By the way, museum-quality facsimiles of routing maps are expensive to produce.  It costs about $500 to scan and print a routing map and more than $1000 to scan and print 18 hole drawings.  If there is a considerable amount of "fixing" to do with software, the cost increases dramatically.

BTW, I took my kids to Washington, DC and we cleaned out the gift shop at the National Archives.  I'll wait to you sell your copies before I flood the market  

Regards,
Wayne

[RJ_Daley]

Tom and I believe that the expansion of knowledge is only beneficial when it is disseminated.  Hopefully an organized collection of copies of his drawings and writings, along with our book (which we intend to finish by the end of the year)will be the definitive study of Flynn's work in golf.

Such sentiments as Wayne expresses above are really the expression of the quality of the heart and soul of those that enjoy this discussion group.  Thanks to all you gentlemen that are so deeply involved in preserving and disseminating these various documents and drawings.

Of course you folks should publish books like George Bahto's, and Tom and Wayne's upcoming book project.  For goodness sakes we all should support these books and hope they are well compensated for their diligent labors of love.  Yet, they also express the desire to make the uncovered documents a part of an exhibit or library for all to learn from.  What could be more generous.

Along these lines, I remember Ron Whitten (when he used to write here once in a while) state that he found a good cache of Langford-American Park Builders documents and plans in a Chicago basement.  One hopes Ron won't wait till he kicks the bucket and his estate gets the big charity deduction in order to donate or publish, present what he found...