Old Money vs. New Money Tracks.

[Gib_Papazian]

Okay, so the average dullard in SoCal does not *grock* the possibilities of Lakeside.

Agreed.

However, does a community with a majority of transient residents have less appeciation for the heritage of their local clubs?

LA and San Diego are wastelands of architectural puke. Maybe this is because the newcomers in these transient communities are too *new* to the area to appreciate the traditions of the original settlers?

The best preserved Raynor courses are old-money layouts that have a sense of their history.

New money operates differently. We all know what I mean.

Most of my ulta-wealthy friends wear wonderful alpaca sweaters that are 25 years old. The Internet couples who made their jing in the NASDAQ hit ERC II drivers.

Can the same be said for their view of architecture?  

[Mike_Sweeney]

I was talking this week to an older friend who is a member of an old Ross course up in Connecticut. Due to the logistics of life, I have never made it up to see the course with him, but it was mentioned on here recently so I decided to call and try and set up a day to get there.

The club lost a number of members during the downturn in the economy, so this past year they dropped the initiation to a smaller nut and they picked up something like 40-50 new members.

Now the new members want to "upgrade" the tap room which sounds like a classic beat up old wood kind of place. The club was one of the founders of the Connecticut State Golf Association, and they are asking questions like " why do we have pictures of these old guys on the walls?"

I need to get there soon before they replace the showerheads !!

By the way architecture and the course was low on their list, which in this case is probably a good thing.

[TEPaul]

Gib:

Here's a little story to show how life can, at least potentially, change at almost any old club. By comparison to some clubs this little story is small potatoes but at Newport it was considered a potential and dangerous sea-change, narrowly avoided.

Some years ago the club's angel, a Mrs Vanderbilt, died and the rest of the old aristocratic members were semi shocked realizing they'd have to cough up more than they'd become used to (many of these old line American WASP aristocrats don't understand they're as rich as they are and tend to be extremely frugal about certain things--hence why some of these old golf clubs have that wonderful sort of worn look to them!).

Anyway, the club semi-panicked and let in a number of locals they call "towns folk". One of these upstart town folks who had no clue as to Newport C.C's culture freaked out when he saw one of the old WASP aristocrats walking around the course playing with his six corgis in tow.

He rushed up to the old member and said;

"You can't have dogs on this golf course!"

And the old member looked at him calmly and said;

"What dogs? I don't see any dogs."

[T_MacWood]

Southern California is an intersting spot in the history of the so called golden age. A comparatively small city in the teens and twenties, but a famous area none the less, because of Hollywood, its natural advantages and nice climate (and its expoding growth).

But for whatever reason the big name architects of the day did not design courses in S.Cal. (Ross, Macdonald, Raynor, Travis, Tillinghast, Park). Fowler made a brief visit and he was probably the biggest name, maybe JD Dunn....although I don't think I'd put him in that same class. But on the opposite side of that coin, it appears to be an area where relatively unknown experimentors could flourish--Thomas, Bell, MacBeth and Behr as prime examples...William Watson, the obligatory Scot pro, was more or less a home-grown LA architect...you might even put MacKenzie in this catagory (he did a good job of promoting himself as famous, and he was known, but not as famous as he portrayed himself). Perhaps it was their willingness to experiment that was also their downfall.

[Mike_Young]

Gib,
As they say , there are those that play golf and then there are golfers.  Seems today there are many more of the former.  Our club is a Ross 1925 and today the manager will tell you golf iis not the driving force.  He just doesn't kknow any better.  And he has taken the board members and convinced them of such.  Our big project this year is $700000 capital project to the dining romm so that more will choose the club as their preference for dining out.  
Yes, what you speak of is a definite .  I don't see it changing as long as F&B guys are at the helm of these clubs. CMAA has dominated the PGA in recent years.

[Mike Hendren]

Gibster,

While I don't disagree, generalizations are difficult.  Holston Hills in Knoxville remains a Ross classic not because of old money, but rather because of NO money.  

Contrast it with Ross' design at Belle Meade CC in Nashville, one of America's quitely moneyed clubs.  It is presently emerging from the knife of Rees Jones following in the footsteps of Gary Roger Baird and RTJ.  

Rich folk screw up too.

Mike

[michael j fay]

Money Old-Money New

The truth about old monied Clubs messing up their Architecture is very true about some but most definately not true about others.

To stay on the cheery side I'll mention some of those with very deep pockets that have kept their courses admirably.

Newport CC- The Ross/Tillinghast course is an exemplar.
Essex County Club-Manchester by the Sea, MA- Other than the modification due to an irritable and litigious neighbor, this course is much the same as when Ross left as Superintendent and Professional in 1916.
Seminole-Ross, redone once in late 40's by Dick Wilson. Retains the original routing and although the fillpads were all changed they have remained essentially the same for 55 years.
Fishers Island- Raynor would build the same course today if alive.
Winged Foot-Really the same course less a few thousand conifers as it was in the '30 Open.
Merion, Chicago Golf, etc.

It doen't take enormous amounts of money for a course to mess up the Architecture, there are abundant examples of that.

I think that there are  a number of wealthy Clubs that have never stopped tinkering from day 1 and have used the services of upwards to eight Architects over the years. What results from this is a very pleasant, very well conditioned golf course that has no real Architectural character.

[Gib_Papazian]

I think what I am getting at is not directed at individual examples of clubs, but more at geographic areas.

The majority of residents in Los Angeles are not from the area. Same goes for San Diego. With such an idyllic climate, it does not make sense the area has a dearth of good architecture.

This is not to say courses like Barona or Maderas are not very good, it just seems like for an area with so many courses, there is not a single private club of note.

 

   

[T_MacWood]

Florida is another example of transient migration. The difference maybe Florida was often the destination of east coast people (and some old money). Raynor, Ross, Tillinghast, Flynn, Strong, Park were all active in Florida

My impression is S.Cal drew more from the midwest. The Greene brothers (the famous architects) were from St.Louis, Irving Gill (very active architect SD) relocated from Chicago. FL Wright was from Chicago. The Gamble's of the Gamble House were from Cincinnati I believe.

There appears to be a Chicago-LA golf connection. Watson went back and forth, Chicago based George O'Neil designed Pasadena CC. The city of Chicago has a history of tweeking their golf courses too (and some would argue became a wasteland also)...although I don't believe the reasons were the same.  

[Bob_Huntley]

Mike Young,

When it comes to dining at clubs I have a novel idea. Pay each member the sum of $50.00 a month to eat elsewhere. The Club will then run on budget. At one time dining-in had its merits, today the prices are as high as in town and the Food and Beverage manager doesn't even have to pay rent.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Gib,
Tom Mac has it on the spot here. The Mid-West "Money" used Pasadena as their winter-homes much like many in New York, New England, NJ and PA. utilize Florida. They did their golfing at Annandale, and when the golf boom really went into over-drive in the early teens, they built Pasadena and Midwick. By then it was not only a sport of influence, but suddenly Mid-Westerners started to live out here full time, as their business concerns expanded on a much bigger scale. Many of the clubs were built to cater to the businessman who wanted it to be close to the office and where he could get a quick 18 in and then get back to the office without anyone noticing he was gone.  The Golden Age of Hollywood was also a big part of it--LACC, long a mainstay in all of this--expanded. (pre-Fowler)  It opened up further doors for Golf, and soon there were not just a few, but many GREAT golf courses that existed all ove the Southland by the end of the 1920's.  These were places that weren't just local, but hidaways and big elaborate resorts designed for Hollywood set. We are talking of a boom of about a less then a 15 year span of golf course building, and where Billy Bell more then likely got any rest, or at least not until once the Depression really took hold of SoCal in early 1933. (I will get the exact count of courses built during that time, later)

Yes, I'm a bit of a homer here, but I do think that anyone that thinks that SoCal has never had GREAT golf is really misinformed, because what I have seen of it, it may have been more on a par with the Arts & Crafts revolution then the East. A simple tour of a Frank Lloyd Wright or Greene & greene website will tell you all you need to know, or a simple click of the brilliant "in my opinion" piece by Tom MacWood.

[Lou_Duran]

Gib,

I wonder how much longer the phenomenom you seem to have identified will last.  As the second, third, and fourth generations at these storied clubs come to see their maker, will their progeny continue to respect tradition and history?  Are the memberships so hopelessly inbred that the inheritors of privilige won't know (or care to) the difference between MacKenzie or Jones?  Will NGLA and CPC then succomb to the mentality of being the biggest and best as their wealth and station in life demands?

Re: SoCAl, I think that LACC for sure is an exception to your generalization.  I see a lot of good things happening there under strong leadership in the green committtee which seems to really "get it".  Also, Bel-Air may not be what it once was, but even the front side, it is much more than the credit it is given.  Riviera only needs a major kikuyu eradication program, expansion of the green surfaces to the original pads, and some relatively minor nips and tucks here and there.  

[Gib_Papazian]

Tommy,

It would be an interesting study - and of course the results would be a matter of opinion - to compile the number of courses in the Southern California, and then figure out as a percentage how many of them are of high quality.

I think ratio would be 50 to 1.

Now compare it to the MGA.

And not to be a homer, now do the same exercise in Northern California.  

Courses in SoCal with merit:

LACC
Riviera
Rustic
Bel Air
Crosby Natl.
Maderas
Annandale

Lost opportunity: Torrey Pines.

I'm sure I am ommitting a few, but methinks that TPC Valencia is a clearer example of the state of golf in your neck of the woods than LACC . . . . .


 

[Scott_Burroughs]

Barona
RSFCC
PGA West (Stadium)
Ojai (fomerly?)
Valley Club

[SPDB]

Gib -
Connecticut would be an interesting exception to your theory. There are nice clubs, some with nice golf courses (e.g. Round Hill, Greenwich, Wee Burn or CC of F.). However the overall quality of the courses is really very mediocre, and provides an interesting exception to the notion that good golf, or well preserved golf follows money, and the really good, really well preserved old courses follow old money.

CT is the richest state per capita, in terms of income and has been that way for quite some time. You would think there would be more a correlation with the quality of its golf courses.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Of course, clearly I'm taking of days gone by. Now we are K Mart.

[Gib_Papazian]

Scott,

Excellent point. . . . though I did not say my list was complete. Can't believe I left off Barona, considering I am the president of the Todd Eckenrode Fan Club.

SPDB,

With the exception of Yale and Fishers, are their any great courses in Conn.?

And yeah, I know that Fishers is "technically" in New York. I could almost swim there from New London.
 

[Bill_McBride]

Who designed Annandale?  Great course up into and back out of the canyons surrounding the Rose Bowl.  Of course we couldn't see much out there in a 1962 college match - the smog was so thick you couldn't see and could barely breathe.  That didn't stop my opponent from holing a four iron on the long uphill par 4 first!

[TEPaul]

Some of us in the established old East Coast do understand that those in the far West, particularly in LA and even San Fran really are transients--or to be blunt about this---vacationers. Just look at the census of LA. around the turn of the last century! It was like a little nothing town and it just boomed from then on with a bunch of transients who we all know just went out there from the established East for a vacation. It doesn't matter to us in the established East if that vacation lasted for a week or 5 or 6 generations. We in the established East DO understand they WILL all come BACK to where they belong eventually---to permenancy and establishmentarianism---or perhaps even that longest of all words us elementary school spelling wizzes remember as antidisestablishmentarianism!

Just look at the way our words work to describe these transient vacationers who went in the wrong direction and perhaps lost their way and their cultural compass for a time. If you go to the West of this country you GO OUT West!! What are you "going out" from exactly? From that great bosom of cultured humanity---the old Established East, of course! But when you return to the Established EAST where you all know you really do belong you COME BACK East!!!

And there's no old money in the West either. It's just old transient Eastern money that does need to eventually be returned and rebanked in those great Established Eastern centers of Boston, New York and Philadelphia whence it went out from at some point in the last hundred or so years which in the context of the culture of the old Established East is just a small blib in time.

As for Washington DC---that's basically a fake town with no real purpose or means of support. I have no earthly idea why so many Presidents of the United States could stand to live there when they could live in New York or even Philadelphia. Washington is nothing more than a mosquito eaten river wash with a bunch of "ne'er do wells" and odd furriners who can never be trusted!

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Bill, I have been doing a bit of research on Annandale as of late, and as soon as I'm finished with my finidings, I will let you know. Most will say it was Billy Bell, but all indications the current version you see of it is Willie Watson with Bell coming in later for revisions. After all, he was keeper of the green there.

[A_Clay_Man]

Gib- It seems logical that "new money tracks" NEED to be much smarter, fiduciarily, than the older ones. Yet haven't. Examples like a Sand Hills, should be the rule not the exception.
On the socal thang: I always thought the high real estate value and water issues made GC's a premium, ergo, fewer.

As Tommy said, some of the stuff, has good to great pedigree. It's just that they appear to have been maintained by some real hounds.

[SPDB]

Gib - "great" courses, no. Nice courses, sure.
the ones I listed are some examples.

So how does this interplay with the economic theory?

[Mike Hendren]

It doesn't matter to us in the established East if that vacation lasted for a week or 5 or 6 generations. We in the established East DO understand they WILL all come BACK to where they belong eventually---

Tom Paul,

This is encouraging.  Precisely what we in the South have been hoping would happen for a long, long time.  We like Yankees - just not the ones that stay.

Mike

[DMoriarty]

Southern California is an intersting spot in the history of the so called golden age. A comparatively small city in the teens and twenties, but a famous area none the less, because of Hollywood, its natural advantages and nice climate (and its expoding growth).

But for whatever reason the big name architects of the day did not design courses in S.Cal. (Ross, Macdonald, Raynor, Travis, Tillinghast, Park). Fowler made a brief visit and he was probably the biggest name, maybe JD Dunn....although I don't think I'd put him in that same class. But on the opposite side of that coin, it appears to be an area where relatively unknown experimentors could flourish--Thomas, Bell, MacBeth and Behr as prime examples...William Watson, the obligatory Scot pro, was more or less a home-grown LA architect...you might even put MacKenzie in this catagory (he did a good job of promoting himself as famous, and he was known, but not as famous as he portrayed himself). Perhaps it was their willingness to experiment that was also their downfall.

Tom,

Perhaps the reason that the big names didnt break into the California market is that the Californians were happy with the architects they had, for example, the ones you mentioned.  I suspect that a few of them may have made some efforts to break in, but were unsuccessful.

Tom, Tommy, and Gib.  

Perhaps it was more an issue of timing than any sort of aristocratic notion of taste.   As Tom notes in his piece on the Arts and Crafts movement, the 'Golden Age' began a little later in California, with an incredible number of great courses being built (or substantially remodeled) toward the end of the 1920's.   Then came the depression, and a huge number of courses were completely lost or irreperably damaged.   By the time things picked up again, we were entering RTJ era.  It is not surprising that many of the courses which survived were immediately corrupted, especially since their members (if many were still there) really had no time to get to know the courses.  Nor did some of the lesser known architects (Bell Sr. for example) have time to establish their reputations like the East Coast greats.  

At this same time in Los Angeles (Pasadena excepted), there was also a shift in money toward the west side of the city-- Hancock Park, Beverly Hills and Bel Air, Santa Monica and the Palisades.   It should come to noones suprise that the courses which survived (Wilshire, LACC, Riviera, Hillcrest, Rancho) relatively unscathed were in these wealthy areas.    

The huge floods of 1938 didnt do much for preserving courses, either.  

Tommy.  Ive never heard that Bell designed Annandale.  In fact, I think that was where he worked as Greenkeeper before he became an architect.  

If you want to find the architect, I'd look into Watson and Norman MacBeth.  I have heard that they both had something to do with it.  I may be mistaken, but I seem to recall that Watson did 9 and MacBeth added 9 later, and maybe changed some of the original.  Perhaps I am confused.

[DMoriarty]

I suspect there are courses in California whose reputations could be greatly improved if they pulled stakes and moved to the East Coast, and were adopted by a big name designer.  

Who knows, maybe a little notariety would have gone a ways toward holding off at least some of the changes.