Newport CC - Ross or Tillie? Both?

[SPDB]

I'm very confused about the history of Newport CC (I'm not talking about the William Davis design). Michael Fay makes repeated reference to the course as Ross/Tillinghast. Clearly the evidence points clearly to Tillinghast's design work there. I have seen no corresponding evidence as to Ross' involvement, excepting Michael's assertions and Golfweek's listing it as Ross - 1915/Tillinghast -1924.

What's the true skinny? I hope that with Wolfe/Young/Fay/MacWood we can get some dispositive views and flesh out the involvement of each, and what features of Ross' still persist.

Thanks

[T_MacWood]

From what I have been able to gather Ross's involvement is more rumor than fact. I'm not aware of any documentation of Ross's involvement at the Tuft's archives. Perhaps he made some minor suggestions in the teens.

At the time CB Macdonald was asked to build a nine hole course for TS Tailer--adjacent to Newport CC--it was reported NCC was basically unchanged from the turn of the century. It was described as outdated. I suspect Tailer's Ocean links may have motivated Newport to hire Tilly.

[SPDB]

Tom -
I've suspected the same, it doesn't hurt the perpetuation of the rumor that Ross (re)designed every other course of note in the state, and lived 15 miles away during the summer.

[JNagle]

What we know of the history of the Club is that Ross did work there prior to Tillinghast.  A rough diagram of his routing is on display, among other great memorabilia, as you enter the Clubhouse.  Tillinghast was brought in following the purchase of the land where 2-8 now exist.  

The 10th green pre-dates Ross, some consider it to be one of the oldest active greensites in the US.  Any features that Tillie may have left unchanged remained on holes 16 & 18, however those features have been modified in recent years to resemble more of the evolved Tillie bunkers.  Evolved in that the bunkers were originally grassed face and are now flashed and will remain flashed.

Tom,

Even though nothing may exist at the Tuft's Archives that does not mean Ross was not involved.  While doing research for many of our projects we do not always find info. at Tuft's.

Newport truly is a Tillinghast course.

[T_MacWood]

JNagle
Did you compare the Davis 18 to the Ross sketch...what did he change?

Another clue...Ross did not list Newport on his design resume.

[michael j fay]

Information on the Ross involvement at Newport is at best sketchy. I would say that today the style throughout the golf course is mostly Tillinghast. The aerial photograph that Ron Forse used to restore the bunkers was from the 30's and remarkably silimlar to today.

I suspect that Mr. Ross would have been approached by some of his Pinehurst friends that summered in Newport, if there were plans to build a course there. By 1915 or so the work of Ross was well enough known in New England circles that he probably would have been one of the first asked.

Raynor, if I am not mistaken built the nine that adjoined the Newport property. There is some talk that he had influence on the NCC, which is entirely possible.

I have not seen the drawing that J. Nagle has referred to but when I next visit Newport I'll sniff around.

I am willing to settle for Tillinghast/Ross although Mr. Ross was probably there first.

[SPDB]

I am willing to settle for Tillinghast/Ross although Mr. Ross was probably there first.

As opposed to what? You make it sound like a concession to Tillie. The way it sounds to me, there is not much to indicate Ross' involvement, besides "a rough diagram" which doesn't really settle the question of whether or what work was done by Ross.

[Dave_Miller]

I'm very confused about the history of Newport CC (I'm not talking about the William Davis design). Michael Fay makes repeated reference to the course as Ross/Tillinghast. Clearly the evidence points clearly to Tillinghast's design work there. I have seen no corresponding evidence as to Ross' involvement, excepting Michael's assertions and Golfweek's listing it as Ross - 1915/Tillinghast -1924.

What's the true skinny? I hope that with Wolfe/Young/Fay/MacWood we can get some dispositive views and flesh out the involvement of each, and what features of Ross' still persist.

Thanks

Sean:
Check with Brad Klein.  He can probably give you chapter and verse.
Best
Dave

[michael j fay]

Ross worked there. Rough diagram only, I doubt it. The course was built in 1916 or at least part of it was.

Specifics 88 years later are difficult without records.

Could be 99% Tillinghast, I do not know, but Ross was there in 1926. I'm not trying to poach the credit for the present day course for Ross, as much as I would like to. Newport is a wonderful golf course that gets better every time you play it.

Look carefully at the course the next time you play it. There is a very good chance you will see features that are very similar to Ross features. You will see more features, especially in the bunkering that is all Tillinghast.

I would defy anyone to swear that all 18 in the layout and all 18 greens are Tillinghast. Although each Architect did distinctive work soem of what each did is very similar.