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TEPaul

Riviera's #10
« on: February 23, 2003, 05:34:15 PM »
God knows how many times Riviera's #10 has been mentioned on this site. What a golf hole?

You can almost see the strategic wheels spinning in the minds of those players on the tee and one never really knows what might happen.

I was so glad to see it used in the play-off. It's fitting that a birdie won it there and it even had the added interest of one helluva a recovery shot by Howell which must have made old Geo. Thomas smile.

It's definitely my favorite short par 4 anywhere and we should recognize that the hole is really all architecture--vs natural asset really--a man's architectural conception through and through--as it's basically on just a wide flat expanse.

What a hole!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Tom Doak

Re: Riviera's #10
« Reply #1 on: February 23, 2003, 05:38:08 PM »
Tom,

I could not agree more that it is a fabulous hole.

The most interesting thing, though, is that Thomas wasn't so sure.  He devoted quite a lot of space in GOLF ARCHITECTURE to the idea that putting was given too much weight in the game, and that putts should only count 1/2 stroke to even things out.  And remember what hole he used to show this?  The tenth at Riviera, without the bunkers around the green!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Riviera's #10
« Reply #2 on: February 23, 2003, 05:38:48 PM »
Amen!  They said Howell had also called it his favorite short par 4 hole, yet ironically, he didn't respect it enough to win or even tie on it.  The architect won this week.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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JohnH

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Riviera's #10
« Reply #3 on: February 23, 2003, 05:39:23 PM »
Agreed, and I also would chime in that the 18th has to be one of the greatest finishing holes in golf.....
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Mike_Sweeney

Re: Riviera's #10
« Reply #4 on: February 23, 2003, 05:59:10 PM »
Am I correct to assume that the green that I saw in the playoff is the "traditional green" and the other is to reduce wear and tear.

Tom and Tom,

What do you think of a short Par 4 as a finishing 18th hole? The only place I can think of one is Donald Steel's course in Newport RI, Carnegie Abbey which plays along Narragansett Bay. I thought it was great when I watched the Ryder Cup Captains play their Shell match there.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:02 PM by -1 »
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JakaB

Re: Riviera's #10
« Reply #5 on: February 23, 2003, 06:04:08 PM »
Mike,

Olympic Lake is a worthy short finishing hole...18 of course...I wonder how close the young pros could come to driving it from at least the front tee...perhaps it is one hole that could become even greater with a little crisco...shortning that is.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:02 PM by -1 »
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TEPaul

Re: Riviera's #10
« Reply #6 on: February 23, 2003, 06:04:40 PM »
TomD;

I've always been amused by that idea amongst a few of those early California architects of putts counting only a half stroke. Wasn't Hunter another one that advocated that or supported it? What a bizarre idea really in retrospect.

I sure did know that the right greenside bunker particularly on #10 was not in Thomas's original plan or original construction? What about the other greenside bunkers? And if anyone of them weren't Thomas, then whose ideas were they or who put them in?

The right greenside bunker sort of makes it though I would think. Coming over it from a right side drive or miss right has to be unbelievable as the green just shoots away.

But just say the bunker wasn't there on the right greenside and in its place was a sort low running ridge with fairway or chipping area running uphill to the top of it and then the green sloping away along the other side as it does now off the right greenside bunker.

How would you like that alternative strategic setup? Seems like the recovery shot choices from the right side even if very close would be even more multiple. And it also seems with that setup it would sucker even more players to go at that green. But imagine with the diagonal orientation of that green having that right side ridge with no bunker facing right at the player on the tee and having him try to gauge the weight with a drive to roll the ball over that ridge and stop it from rolling over the other side into a bunker or whatever?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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TEPaul

Re: Riviera's #10
« Reply #7 on: February 23, 2003, 06:12:27 PM »
MikeS:

TOC's finishing hole ain't too shabby for interesting strategies (depending on whatever situation) and certainly a lot of odd things have happened on it to win or lose. It's definitely not your standard gut it out long par 4 finishing hole! And the nice thing about it is say someone needed an eagle to win--went for the green and got it. That certainly isn't possible on the standard long par 4 finishing hole. The strategic possibilities offer a wider spectrum with a finisher like TOC's.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Gary Smith (Guest)

Re: Riviera's #10
« Reply #8 on: February 23, 2003, 06:41:07 PM »
Thomas was probably right about putting being too much of the game.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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noonan

Re: Riviera's #10
« Reply #9 on: February 23, 2003, 06:48:31 PM »
Didn't Hogan thought putting was too much a part of scoring too......maybe I read that in his book?

Jerry
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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wdaspin

Re: Riviera's #10
« Reply #10 on: February 23, 2003, 06:51:20 PM »
I agree that #10 was a great choice to include in the playoff.

Weir made a perfect, gutsy shot to the 10th today. hitting between the pin and the right side bunker.  That green sets up well for a lefty going the safe left route.  

Howell lost because he missed a putt in clutch time.  Maybe he was drained from making that amazing shot he hit from the bunker fronting the alternate green.

I went on Friday and I thought Riviera never looked better from a conditioning standpoint.  The greens appeared to be in top form.  

  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Paul Richards

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Riviera's #10
« Reply #11 on: February 23, 2003, 07:01:28 PM »
The play-off today highlighted just what a great hole #10 is!

Weir takes the 'safe route' and lays up.  Howell tries to use his length to his advantage, only to hit a poor tee-shot - even the announcers thought he had no chance from where he ended up.

Weir hits is nicely to 8-feet.  Howell hits an AMAZING bunker shot to about 6-feet.  

Weir makes.  Howell misses.  Weir wins.

Two VERY different routes taken by each of the competitors!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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"Something has to change, otherwise the never-ending arms race that benefits only a few manufacturers will continue to lead to longer courses, narrower fairways, smaller greens, more rough, more expensive rounds, and other mechanisms that will leave golf's future in doubt." -  TFOG

Gary Smith (Guest)

Re: Riviera's #10
« Reply #12 on: February 23, 2003, 07:07:46 PM »
Bill,

Was Weir's second shot at #10 a gutsy play or a pull?  ;)

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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wdaspin

Re: Riviera's #10
« Reply #13 on: February 23, 2003, 10:22:46 PM »
Probably pulled it a tad!  But to get it close he couldn't be much left of the pin :D
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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TEPaul

Re: Riviera's #10
« Reply #14 on: February 24, 2003, 02:44:19 AM »
"Two VERY different routes taken by each of the competitors!"

Paul:

For strategic interest and consequence the hole sure got my attention when I noticed in the 1998 LA Open the last group all in contention (Tryba, Woods, Love) took THREE very different routes off the tee which resulted in very interesting outcomes. That kind of thing says so much about a hole. Strategies are spoken about all the time but when a hole has as many interesting ones as that one does and they're USED all the time (which some options on some holes really aren't) that says a great deal to me.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Riviera's #10
« Reply #15 on: February 24, 2003, 07:18:18 AM »
How cleaned up has the barranca been over the last ten years or so? I read a really interesting book, I think entitled Through the Green, which covered the LA Open back in 92 or so, detailing Freddie's playoff win over DLIII. The book was written from Davis's perspective. I hadn't seen the hole before I read the book, and the way he descibed #10, I was expecting to see more unkempt area to the right, almost like Pine Valley. There was even a controversy that year over whether Davis grounded his club in the barranca, which was then marked as a hazard. I can't figure out any area they could have been describing.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

A_Clay_Man

Re: Riviera's #10
« Reply #16 on: February 24, 2003, 07:34:40 AM »
Agreed that that is one cool hole. The greensite reminds of #10 across town at Wilshire CC, but it's a par 3. Same narrow hourglass like shape well bunker with an angled orientation.

I don't see any modern designer being given the green light to build such a golf hole very often, mostly because the average Mrs. Haversham could'nt bowl her way to par. :'(
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Ben Cowan-Dewar

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Riviera's #10
« Reply #17 on: February 24, 2003, 10:32:21 AM »
The playoff did well to highlight what an excellent hole it is.  These are the contributions that professional golf can make to architecture. Two reports today both highlighted what a perfect strategic hole this was, which is a nice contribution from the journalists.

On another note, the 15th hole at Ojai shared some characteristics of a great short par four. They need to cut three trees down, however, you can see a similarly excellent angle and strategy here.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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TomSteenstrup

Re: Riviera's #10
« Reply #18 on: February 24, 2003, 12:37:06 PM »
It appears that consensus here is that Weir played the correct tee shot on 10 and Howell made a "stupid choice" (paraphrasing a post in another thread).

If the choice is so obvious, doesn't that imply a flaw in the design? If there is nothing good to gain from trying to drive the green, doesn't that make the hole less interesting? How many options are left then?

I submit that the 10th at the Belfry is a better hole then.

Just being devil's advocate here of course, but still, I'm surprised that going for it apparently isn't an option.

I'm glad Howell went for the green though. 1) Viewers will learn a bit about strategy, 2) Viewers may learn that thought can beat distance, and 3) I got a chance to see an amazing bunker shot.

Tom
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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JohnH

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Riviera's #10
« Reply #19 on: February 24, 2003, 12:51:34 PM »
As I stated in another post, the fact that Howell tried to drive the green is irrelevant.  The fact is they both had birdie putts inside 10 ft. and Weir converted, Howell didn't.  This is just an example how important putting is in golf.  The bottom line is who can get it into the hole in fewer strokes, and Howell, regardless of how he got there, had his shot to make a putt and couldn't.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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A_Clay_Man

Re: Riviera's #10
« Reply #20 on: February 24, 2003, 04:08:27 PM »
Tom Steenstrup- I don't know if you could call that a design flaw. Noone has mentioned the cool conditions that overtook the coast at that time. Wier made reference to it and said it reminded him of canada. I wonder if Wier would've hit the same shot if the ball had been traveling in warmer air? And while Cuckies ball ended up in what we would all agree was dead, the truth is he probably missed it minutely but with the heavy air (javier) it cut a little too much.

I also bet that he hit the putt that missed exactly where he wanted to, just like Lehman did.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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