15 at Augusta

[Evan_Green]

After watching the pros play this hole for another year- I still really dont see very much strategy involved in this hole for the pro game:

If you hit the fairway- hit your favorite long iron to the green- if you execute really well it holds the green- if you only execute well your chipping is tested behind the green

If you miss the fairway like Phil yesterday- lay up and pitch onto the green

It seems very cut and dry what you have to do on that hole

Yes there is always drama on this hole on Sunday because so many different scores can be made- but it is so much less interesting than #13 in my opinion

Perhaps if the hole was longer (or the ball was shorter) and if going for it in 2 were an issue to these guys it would be a better hole- do they have any room behind 15 tee to extend the hole?

[Bill_McBride]

I've only seen Augusta on television, but have to think that the tee shots on #13 and #15 are the most critical on the golf course.  If you don't hit it just right, you have to lay up. The pitch to #15 after laying up could be the most terrifying in golf, with that shaved bank / false front taking any slightly hesitant pitches back into the water.  Then you have to hit the damned shot again!  So to say that #15 is one-dimensional is probably a bit of an exaggeration!  I guess there isn't any room to add length or Hootie would have done it after Tiger was hitting sand wedges in there a few years ago.  Lengthening #13 made no sense whatsoever.  Now it's a lay up for all but the longest, which was certainly never the intention.  The distance to the turn in the dogleg looks so much longer that turning it over off the tee is more dangerous than in the past.

[A.G._Crockett]

Evan,
There was one eagle (Langer on 15) and less than 15 birdies on #'s 13 and 15 combined on Saturday from the top 25 golfers in the tournament.  Additionally, Woods' 7 was the only thing higher than bogey from the top 25.  As I said in another thread, that is a very, very tight range of scores on two holes that have provided much more drama in the past.  I find that to be unfortunate.

[Evan_Green]

Bill

I agree with you that the 15th has scary aspects to it- ask Vijay when he took the 8 or 9 there!  I just dont think in terms of strategy it is that interesting of a hole- its an either you execute the shot or not type of situation- no pro in this day an age is going to lay up from the fairway when they only have a 5 iron- the only option comes out of the rough- i just dont think that makes for a very strategic hole when you only have to think about what you are doing when you hit a bad drive.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Evan Green,

Keep watching and perhaps the strategy will become apparent to you.

The hole can't be lengthened.

The TV cameras don't tell the entire story.

[Jfaspen]

I think the showing of Vijay's 2nd shot spinning back into the water perfectly describes the difficulty of this hole, no matter how it is played.

Jeff

[JakaB]

Don't forget that Sergio hit 7 iron in to make his eagle...swashbuckles or no..

[Patrick_Mucci]

Evan Green,

How would you compare the strategy on hole # 15 to that on holes # 2 and # 8 ?

[Evan_Green]

Patrick-

I have no doubt that #15 is a very difficult hole under the conditions set up at the masters- particularly with Sunday pressure.  

I just dont find it as strategically interesting as other holes. I would appreciate it very much if you could elaborate on why you believe #15 at Augusta is a strategically significant hole

Thank you very much

Evan

[TEPaul]

Evan:

I'm not sure why you're having a hard time with the strategy of ANGC's #15. Both #13 and #15 are two classic "go/no go" short par 5s. The idea or strategy on them is basically similar--a strategy of two connecting shots--the tee shots and second shot to go or not with some dire consequences on a too aggressive or misplayed second.

For those guys particularly on Sunday depending on their situation in the field there's a lot of pressure on those two tee shots--much more on #13 because of the severe right to left cant of the fairway and the far more penal than #15 left side of #13.

Although both par 5s for those guys both holes are just long par 4s and to them a par 5 is a bogie against the field and an eagle is like a rare and dangerous birdie on a difficult par 4.

Since most "go/no go" short par 5s like those are just two high demand connecting shots (demanding long and accurate drive and a good pretty scary second) the real strategy or mental difficulty on those two holes is what to do if the drive doesn't come off ideally? That's the thing about those two hole that make them great. If the drive comes off really poorly the decision is basically made for you but that's not the strategic point of those two holes---it's what to do if you're drive is just marginal!! That's where the strategic dilemma is and as we saw again this year failing on the second in that dilemma zone has some very dire consequences.

[Matt_Ward]

I have no problem with the original intent on the strategy involving the 15th hole -- it's the addition of the inane second cut and sherwood forest tree line that has enveloped the right hand side.

[Steve_Lemmon]

Re:  Strategy on this hole:  During the practice rounds this year, I watched Faxon throw balls into the first cut of rough to experiment with how they would not check up as quickly.   This was after he hit two wedges from the fairway which spun back into the water.  From the rough, the ball will bounce forward to the pin.  I wouldn't be surprised to see more of the layups go to the rough instead of the fairway.  

[BigEdSC]

I know that I'll get fried for this answer, but I think it is one of the most exciting holes at the Masters.  I sat in the stands there for most of Saturday and saw Faxon, Leonard and Langer make eagle, and saw a lot of drama.

You first have to drive it into the right side of the fairway to get an open shot.  The left side of the fairway is pinched down so if you are on the left side of the fairway, you have to make a big decision on whether to go for the green or layup.  The target area on the green, this year, was extremely small.  Hit short of the flag (or front quarter of the green) and the ball rolls in the water.  Hit pin high, and the ball bounds over the green.  And more often than not, if you went for the green in two and went over the green, it was not an automatic up-and-down.  Tuesday, I went to the practice round and the players had a hard time gauging the speed of the slope on the green, and Saturday, they were still having a difficult time.  I probably saw more birdies from guys laying up than the ones flying over the green.

Year after year, I see a larger disparity of scores on that hole than any other hole.  

[BCrosby]

Historically, there has been a much wider spectrum of scoring on 13 than on 15. In fact, 8 has had a wider scoring range (by a nose) than 15 the last couple of years.

That said, 15 is still a great, great hole.

Bob

[Phil_the_Author]

I am of the minority opinion that the hole is fine as it stands. Consider, the strategy for the hole is built on the idea that half the field will birdie it & that, in order to win on Sunday, you MUST at least birdie.

For those who think this pressure is not paramount, just ask Bernard Langer today, who was -5 when he hit into the water yesterday. Up until that moment he was very much in contention. As the ball rolled backwards off the green front, gaining momentum as it rolled into the water, do you suppose he was thinking, "I guess that will end all of this speculation about my being a playing captain at the Ryder Cup in September!"

[Mike Hendren]

"Awkward" might be a better description of 15 than "strategic."  The distance is ideal.  A champion golfer sees the opportunity to readily make a 3 whereas the player laying up (albeit often because of stupid trees) nonetheless feels compelled to attempt a dicey pitch to have a reasonable chance at 4 lest he lose a stroke to the field.  

Pat Mucci's TV comment is highly appropriate here.  For some reason, the second shot is one of the most visually intimidating I've ever seen - not to suggest it's not difficult.  I wish I could articulate why.  It looks extremely long with an elevation change of 1/2 club to a green that looks and effectively plays relatively shallow.  

It is a great golf hole in my opinion despite the fact that the new trees down the right-hand side and the elimination of the mounds there place too much architectural emphasis on the left hand horizontal tree line.  

Mike

[johnk]

Some observations from yesterday, standing just beyond the trees on the left about 140yds out, as the leaders came through.

1.  Not a lot of people get their drive into position A.  Els did - an absolute bomb.  Being there in person, you don't know the exact yardage or the club he hit, but I'm guess about a 180 seven iron?

2.  Getting a layup to an optimum distance (say a 110 wedge) is not easy at all.  There's a crosswalk that ends at 115yds, and the ball will not stop anywhere near that.  I think Casey tried to put his layup at 100 yds, but it rolled into the rough...   Mickelson just chipped it all the way down the hill...  too close

3.  The trees on the left are not GCA approved, but they make for much more fun viewing as bets are made in the gallery - one guy was willing to bet anyone $100 that Phil would go for it from there (as he did in 2002).  No one took him up

4. FINALLY, everyone says you can't see the elevation change as well on TV.  But what really is impressive is how narrow a target the green is.  Very skinny looking, and you don't want to be short, but coming in from 200 with a 5 iron is no bargain due to the water in back.  The green basically a small island...

It's incredibly fun to watch in person.

[Carlyle Rood]

I know that I'll get fried for this answer, but I think it is one of the most exciting holes at the Masters.  I sat in the stands there for most of Saturday and saw Faxon, Leonard and Langer make eagle, and saw a lot of drama.

I agree with you.  I watched every twosome on Sunday play the fifteenth.  It was great theater.  Of course, with two aces, the sixteenth was by far the most exciting hole on Sunday.

If you were watching on Sunday, then you would have seen everyone struggling to hold the 15th green--whether going for the green in two or pitching on in three.  That's a symptom of a difficult downhill stance and a narrow landing area.

Many people hit beyond the green.  About a dozen had an opportunity to get up-and-down for birdie.  Only ONE did--Ernie Els.  Most made pars.  But I saw bump-and-runs, putts, pitches, and chips to that pin and no one could figure it out but Els.  It was very entertaining.

For what's been described as a straight-forward, strategically impotent golf hole, I saw this hole elicit a tremendous diversity of shots from world-class golfers.  Some may be think the uniformity of scores would indicate in absence of strategy; however, I would prefer to look at the variety of execution to demonstrate its strategic merit.

[johnk]

Carlyle,

I saw the same effect on the chipping on #11 - one of those so-called "more accessible" pins.  For 15 two-somes, I didn't see anyone land an approach within 10 feet until KJ Choi eagled it.

However, I did see a ton of people long, right, about even with the back bunker.  A good safe place to miss.  However, very few of them got up and down because of the break around the hole.  One guy who did was Ernie Els.   He chipped to about 4 feet, but left it more to the back right of the hole rather than leaving it lower, more towards the front.  The guys that did that all missed the come-backer on the left side.

I have to think that:
 A) Ernie is one of the top 3 chippers in the world.
 B) Experience had something to do with leaving it where he
did...  He made the putt, everyone else missed.

One more observation derived from watching a lot of people at #11, #12 and #15 - the players who are playing the best at the Masters are playing a discernible level above the players who aren't.  They make eagles and birdies no matter where the pins are.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Evan Green,

The cameras just don't show you what you need to see at
# 15 and many other holes, such as # 6.

The strategy on # 15 far exceeds that of # 2 and # 8, on the  tee shot, 2nd shot, third shot and recovery.

Also remember, that the consequence of missing the green short, left or long is far more dire then on holes # 2 and # 8.

What happens if you go for the 2nd or 8th hole in two, and miss-hit the shot ?   Nothing.

What happens if you hit your tee shot on # 2 and # 8 a little left or right ?  What happens to you at # 15 ?

Mickelson almost lost the tournament because he failed to keep his ball in the fairway or right rough on # 15, resulting in a par, which gives a stroke back to the field.

It's a good strategic hole.