News:

This discussion group is best enjoyed using Google Chrome, Firefox or Safari.


Jeff Goldman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Ron Whitten on Rustic Canyon
« on: April 12, 2004, 02:56:27 PM »
I don't know if anyone has mentioned this, but Ron Whitten has a fairly interesting article on Rustic posted on golfdigest.com.  Also mentions the "what would you do to improve Rustic?" thread here after KPIII.

Jeff Goldman
That was one hellacious beaver.

David Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Ron Whitten on Rustic Canyon
« Reply #1 on: April 12, 2004, 03:06:25 PM »
"This was a desert canyon unsuitable for golf, after all..."
WTF?
"Whatever in creation exists without my knowledge exists without my consent." - Judge Holden, Blood Meridian.

Brian Phillips

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Ron Whitten on Rustic Canyon
« Reply #2 on: April 12, 2004, 03:13:06 PM »
Pretty good reading.

Brian
Bunkers, if they be good bunkers, and bunkers of strong character, refuse to be disregarded, and insist on asserting themselves; they do not mind being avoided, but they decline to be ignored - John Low Concerning Golf

Mike_Cirba

Re:Ron Whitten on Rustic Canyon
« Reply #3 on: April 12, 2004, 03:17:06 PM »
"This was a desert canyon unsuitable for golf, after all..."
WTF?

I can't find the article...so much for my research skills.

However, if Whitten said this perhaps someone needs to send him a copy of "The Making of Rustic Canyon", which shows incredibly minimalistic before and after pictures.  


Craig Van Egmond

  • Karma: +0/-0

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Ron Whitten on Rustic Canyon
« Reply #5 on: April 12, 2004, 03:29:50 PM »
"This was a desert canyon unsuitable for golf, after all..."
WTF?

This is WAY out of context. The actual quote is:

Quote
Rustic Canyon is minimalism to a maximum degree. Hanse et. al. worked very hard to make it look like they did nothing at all. This was a desert canyon unsuitable for golf, after all, but now it looks like it was all there all along for the taking, if the designers just knew under which tumbleweeds to look.

I believe Mr. Whitten is saying others felt it was a desert canyon unsuitable for golf, or perhaps that some feel desert canyons are not suitable for golf.

I agree with Brian - this review was very interesting reading. I like it a lot more than other reviews recently posted by Mr. Whitten, in terms of thought provoking content.
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Brian Phillips

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Ron Whitten on Rustic Canyon
« Reply #6 on: April 12, 2004, 03:42:22 PM »
George,

I wish I could put words down on paper in a similar fashion to you...

Brian
Bunkers, if they be good bunkers, and bunkers of strong character, refuse to be disregarded, and insist on asserting themselves; they do not mind being avoided, but they decline to be ignored - John Low Concerning Golf

Tiger_Bernhardt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Ron Whitten on Rustic Canyon
« Reply #7 on: April 12, 2004, 03:55:51 PM »
I thought it was a great review. I hope the grass problems at Riviera do not make it to Rustic. lol

Mike_Cirba

Re:Ron Whitten on Rustic Canyon
« Reply #8 on: April 12, 2004, 03:56:49 PM »
Craig;

Thanks for sharing the link.

My apologies for jumping the gun.  I found Whitten's article to be precise and thoughtful.  


A_Clay_Man

Re:Ron Whitten on Rustic Canyon
« Reply #9 on: April 12, 2004, 03:57:56 PM »
Here's one that seems ambiguous.
Quote
I think the tuning-fork short par-4 third is a dandy of a hole. The designers apparently took advantage of a natural hollow and ran a fairway to each side of it, but I don't believe for a minute the green contours just happened to be there, too. That green, canting in a direction favorable to approaches from the tight left-hand fairway, less favorable from the more generous right-hand fairway, is clearly manmade, though I hasten to add, very natural-looking.


Or am reading it all wrong?

Geoff_Shackelford

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Ron Whitten on Rustic Canyon
« Reply #10 on: April 12, 2004, 05:41:11 PM »
That's really a nice write up from Ron. It's great to hear he absorbed what we were trying to do in his time there and it's really fun to read what he said about #3.

One thing I must address that's been covered here before: the flood was the result of barren hills caused by the first brush fire in 50 or so years and a new soil profile as a result of the fire. Prior to construction there was one similar overnight downpour that resulted in 6-7 inches of rain in a 10 hour period. The following day I could not find running water on the site, so I suspect that after next year when the vegetation returns and the soil profile gets back to its old self, there will not be concerns about flooding washing out a fairway or sending run-off onto the course.

Geoff
PS - and I'm not writing a book on the building of the course, a chapter in Grounds for Golf was more than enough to inflict on the reading public!

Dan Grossman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Ron Whitten on Rustic Canyon
« Reply #11 on: April 12, 2004, 07:44:50 PM »
Ron Whitten writes:
"I don't know that the course is deemed a firebreak by local officials, although I bet it is. The course could survive a scorching but suffer aesthetically. (After all, they burn out the roughs on prairie courses every three years or so, but that's before the growing season.) I could see the owners someday wanting a little more irrigation, a little more buffer, in the case of a flash fire."

I assume that he didn't know that the course caught on fire last fall??  

I was remarking yesterday that considering that the course had been subjected to both a wildfire and torrential rains / flooding, it has survived pretty well.  


rjsimper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Ron Whitten on Rustic Canyon
« Reply #12 on: April 12, 2004, 07:57:08 PM »


I assume that he didn't know that the course caught on fire last fall??  

I was remarking yesterday that considering that the course had been subjected to both a wildfire and torrential rains / flooding, it has survived pretty well.  



With apologies to those who were there, or know without a shadow of a doubt, I don't believe the course itself caught fire, but rather the surrounding hillsides and the wash area running down the center of the course...the fairways/rough/greens were mostly if not completely untouched...so ultimately, like Ron mentions in his article, its little different than Wild Horse burning down the "wooga" every year or two...


Tommy_Naccarato

Re:Ron Whitten on Rustic Canyon
« Reply #13 on: April 12, 2004, 09:07:59 PM »
Did anyone else feel that Ron's review of Rustic was almost like it as intended as a Golf Club Atlas post, but he did it under the guise of Golf Digest.com?

All in all, Great review Ron and it makes many of us who frequent there proud of what we have. Its a special place that requires more then just one or two looks. I feel as if I might be learning out there for a lifetime.

Thanks for making it that much more special.


Matthew Schulte

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Ron Whitten on Rustic Canyon
« Reply #14 on: April 12, 2004, 11:50:33 PM »
What did you all make of the below quote from the article?  

"If there's one aspect to the third hole I don't understand, it's the wide doughnut of bentgrass collar completely around the green. This is a feature on every hole on the course, obviously installed so that approaches and surrounds could be closely mown for bump-and-run shots. But the third is a drive-and-pitch hole. Why provide any bump-and-run benefit to a green meant to be approached with a high lofted iron?  In fact, why have the same, uniform, 10-yard-wide collar of bent around every green on the course? Isn't that a formulaic feature that runs counter to the very spirit of random, lay-of-the-land architecture? Isn't that just as cookie-cutter as the preconceived bunker styles of other designers would be on this course?"

That is so interesting because I remember having trouble determining where the fairways ended and the greens began.  I can't recall another course where the collar of the green was less noticeable to my eye.  So I was so focused on trying to locate the edges of the greens that this "uniformity" was lost on me.  Interesting that it could stand out so much to someone else!

Good write up Ron.  
« Last Edit: April 13, 2004, 08:53:31 AM by Matthew Schulte »

Tommy_Naccarato

Re:Ron Whitten on Rustic Canyon
« Reply #15 on: April 13, 2004, 05:02:30 AM »
Matthew,
Many have this same problem and personally--and this isn't just more gratuitous defense of the course and the design--its very much like the same look and feeling of the Old Course where one has trouble differentiating where the green starts or ends because the greens themselves are just as much as part of the fairways. When I first realized that this is what it was going to be like during grow-in, one night, Gil and I were out there hitting shots to the green on #2. I had placed the keys of my car on the green for a target to aim for and while playing over the bunkers on the right side, we hit shots with everything from an eight to a five iron and were having a blast. I knew then I was really going to love this place!

It takes a bit to get used to, and while its a constant battle for Superintendent Jeff Hicks to keep them playing fast and firm, still, there is no other course like it in regards to the closed-cropped approaches. Yes, it might be better if they were more visable to some but to sacrafice that for a more aerial approach where the greens would not be utilized to their fullest, would be a crime.

One of the best critiques about the 3rd at Rustic Canyon is that both sides debate it fervishly and often. This tells me that its a hole that is worthy of study more then just once or twice. Brad Klein once told me that he saw no reason in the world to go left on the hole, and my best play is from that side with a low running bump and run. If I'm too far left, then I have to carry the bunker and then get the ball stopped. Thats why a front left or center pin is best to come in from the right, but you really have some deception to work with as far as the green and that collar of approach that Ron talks about. IT MAKES YOU THINK!

While others can drive the green with ease, I can still count the birdies from doing so on both hands. (maybe an exaggeration, but it isn't by much) I do know if given the chance, the designers would have that green somewhat narrower, and then you would really be hearing some heated debate about the hole! But that's the beauty of it--conversation.

I constantly remind myself of the day out there with Matt Ward, a fairly long player who has no problem admitting it. Matt drove the green. I chose to play left that day to the front left pin, and played it too far left where I had to carry the bunker. I hit a lob wedge and miraclously got it stopped and had a 7-footer to comeback for bird. Matt's drive, clearly an impressive one left him around 32 feet to the pin, but like mine, had to putt back uphill. and this is where the defense of the hole really starts. You have to really hit the ball, because its really going uphill and you can't see it--Matt fell victim to the subtlety of the site and ended up still around 16-18 feet short. He then of course had to sink that and barely missed, and then sort of backhanded that, and missed that! I just missed my putt for a four. The point is that despite my lack of length to drive the green; my chore of having to carry the bunker left of the green, I did so and was rewarded with a really good attempt at birdie, but I missed it. Matt chose to utilize his strength and was the victim--even though we both still acheived par. (Well sort of!)

It was then I really learned to appreciate the 3rd at Rustic Canyon.  

A_Clay_Man

Re:Ron Whitten on Rustic Canyon
« Reply #16 on: April 13, 2004, 09:09:40 AM »
Matthew- The passage you quote does seem to prove both Tommy's point of it being a post here, rather than some form of journalism and how childish RW can be. NAh nah nah nah nah .

Quote
But the third is a drive-and-pitch hole. Why provide any bump-and-run benefit to a green meant to be approached with a high lofted iron?  In fact, why have the same, uniform, 10-yard-wide collar of bent around every green on the course? Isn't that a formulaic feature that runs counter to the very spirit of random, lay-of-the-land architecture? Isn't that just as cookie-cutter as the preconceived bunker styles of other designers would be on this course?"

On the first Q, WHY, because it's not up to anyone but the golfer, what shot to execute. On the second, without it doesn't it just force an aerial? The third, NO it's not formulaic, it's likely integral to the playability, ala Wild Horse. And to the last, is he advocating "No Style" or approaching it the way Chihuly does his chandliers?

I can see it now, RW with his own beer, "NO Style"

DMoriarty

Re:Ron Whitten on Rustic Canyon
« Reply #17 on: April 13, 2004, 04:03:07 PM »
I too enjoyed Mr. Whitten's review.  He seems to understand the essence of the course.   Also having played there quite alot, I found some of his observations to be quite amusing.   A few quick comments:

--  Proof that Mr. Whitten is much less observant than Mr. Klein--  Mr. Whitten did not mention the row of houses a couple of hundred yards behind/left of the 4th green.  Surely if he had seen this atrocious encumbrance, he'd have thought it worthy of mention in his critique.  

-- the photo is of the 11th green, not the 13th.  (It was taken before the fire, so perhaps Mr. Whitten wrote the review based on a past visit.)

--  Mr. Whitten commented that every green on the course is surrounded by a uniform bentgrass apron.    The eighth has no apron at all, but instead has thick rough.  Also the aprons are by no means uniform in size or shape.

--  I dont think I agree with his characterization of No. 3 as a "drive and pitch hole."   It is a drive  and do whatever you want hole.  In certain conditions the bump and run might be the only way to have a good chance at keeping the ball on the green.  

--  That being said, I dont agree with Tommy that a way to improve the No. 3 is to make the green narrower.  Because of the aprons, the actual green shapes and sizes are often not that important on the approach.  In fact, depending on pins, my target is often off the green on a number of holes, including No. 3.  If No 3. was narrower, I'd play the same shots . . . I'd just plan to putt more off the fringe than I do now.  

--  The esteemed Mike Hendren had very similar comments as Mr. Whitten about the bent collar shortly after KP III.   I've never seen this as contradictory to the natural, low-profile style of RC because, unlike cookie-cutter bunkers, the closely cut apron highlights the natural flow of the land.   But the point of view is interesting nonetheless.  

With apologies to those who were there, or know without a shadow of a doubt, I don't believe the course itself caught fire, but rather the surrounding hillsides and the wash area running down the center of the course...the fairways/rough/greens were mostly if not completely untouched...so ultimately, like Ron mentions in his article, its little different than Wild Horse burning down the "wooga" every year or two...

Ryan, please pardon me if I am misunderstanding you . . . If one considers in-play native vegetation to be part of the rough/course, then quite a lot of the course burnt.   For example, the wash down the center comes into play on 11 holes.  Nothing irrigated burned, but most of what was not irrigated did burn.  

I think perhaps Dan was just pointing out that it is a little ironic that Mr. Whitten would suggest that the course needed more irrigation to prevent damage from a flash fire.  After all, a major fire burned through last fall and now one can hardly tell.  Even an expert eye like Mr. Whitten failed to notice (assuming he has been there since.)

Likewise, Mr. Whitten's suggestion regarding the need for a flood channel might be serious overkill.  As Geoff says above, this flood was pretty rare, in that it contained the topsoil (silty sand) from tens of thousands of acres of burnt mountain slopes and canyons bottoms.  Even with the severity of the situation, the course only lost about a week of play and only one hole needed major repairs (regrassing the first fairway on No. 7.)  I would say that cost of some sort of channel far outweighs the future cost of a potential flood, especially when one considers that the circumstances which lead to the flood are very unlikely.   An east coast course would be glad to only loose a week or so to weather!  Should we put bubbles over all those courses to keep the weather out?

A photo of the 14th fairway a few days after the fire:

« Last Edit: April 13, 2004, 04:05:58 PM by DMoriarty »

rjsimper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Ron Whitten on Rustic Canyon
« Reply #18 on: April 13, 2004, 04:52:45 PM »
Ryan, please pardon me if I am misunderstanding you . . . If one considers in-play native vegetation to be part of the rough/course, then quite a lot of the course burnt.   For example, the wash down the center comes into play on 11 holes.  Nothing irrigated burned, but most of what was not irrigated did burn.  

I guess my definition, or at least my sense of what we have here, is based on affected play...though the wash area does indeed cross, separate, and border many of the holes, it could just as easily be water, marshland, or chicken soup and the course would still play the same.  So, perhaps a better definition would be to my knowledge, none of the grass, or trees burnt...now, trees of course are a rarity, but I would consider the course more affected on a purely functional level had the trees on 12 or 14 burnt down than I currently do with the burn damage that I know to have been inflicted.

Make sense?


Tommy_Naccarato

Re:Ron Whitten on Rustic Canyon
« Reply #19 on: April 13, 2004, 04:53:01 PM »
Quote
--  That being said, I dont agree with Tommy that a way to improve the No. 3 is to make the green narrower.  Because of the aprons, the actual green shapes and sizes are often not that important on the approach.  In fact, depending on pins, my target is often off the green on a number of holes, including No. 3.  If No 3. was narrower, I'd play the same shots . . . I'd just plan to putt more off the fringe than I do now.

David, This is the opinion of the designers who in hindsight, felt it should have been more narrow, but I do think that some less width at the green would make the left a more tantlizing proposal. That was my point.

DMoriarty

Re:Ron Whitten on Rustic Canyon
« Reply #20 on: April 13, 2004, 09:24:17 PM »
Ryan, gotcha.   I still have to wonder if Mr. Whitten missed the news of the recent Southern California fires.  An aside that has been mentioned on here before.  The course worked as a terrific firebreak for the city and the firefighters were appreciative.  They also flew multiple water dropping helicopters out of RC.  

. . . while the main wash was and is environmentally protected, much else that burned was playable (and hopefully will be again.)  For example, the right of 14 and both sides of 16 used to be playable from the native.  The fences for the grow-in are getting a little old . . . .

Tommy,  if that is what the designers think then they are wrong as well.  I dont see how making the green narrower would change the nature of the shot from the right unless the designers also followed Mr. Whitten's unsolicited advice and did away with the collar.    Speaking of unsolicited advice . . . if the third green has a problem (which is arguable) it is the lowspot at the front right of the green.  

Tommy_Naccarato

Re:Ron Whitten on Rustic Canyon
« Reply #21 on: April 13, 2004, 09:43:55 PM »
Where it collects a bit too much water....that is correct, but, the idea was to create a bit of a harder second in comparison to playing it to the left. That was the nature of the original design, and yes, it may not be neccessary anymore because we have all adapted to it nicely.

David Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Ron Whitten on Rustic Canyon
« Reply #22 on: April 13, 2004, 10:12:16 PM »
To me if the third green has a problem (which is arguable) it is the raised back of the green.  I have always wanted those back bunkers to come into play more for approach shots and drives that are hit too strongly.
"Whatever in creation exists without my knowledge exists without my consent." - Judge Holden, Blood Meridian.

DMoriarty

Re:Ron Whitten on Rustic Canyon
« Reply #23 on: April 13, 2004, 11:45:59 PM »
Where it collects a bit too much water....that is correct, but, the idea was to create a bit of a harder second in comparison to playing it to the left. That was the nature of the original design, and yes, it may not be neccessary anymore because we have all adapted to it nicely.

Tommy IMO the low spot front right and the high spot back left (mentioned by David) relatively favor the player on the right, not the left.  That (in addition to the drainage you mentioned) is why I dont much like the low spot.

It would be interesting to see how the hole played if the front right was just a tad higher and the back left a tad lower-- in effect twisting the green.  My bet is that it would make it a little more challenging to keep a tee ball out of the bunkers and would benefit an approach left relative to an approach right.

Not sure I agree with you that this was the designers' intent, but we can talk about that some other time.  

Certainly picking nits.  I always enjoy playing the hole as it is.  

Thomas_Brown

Re:Ron Whitten on Rustic Canyon
« Reply #24 on: April 14, 2004, 01:26:18 AM »
Good writeup from Whitten.
I too am a bit curious if he was writing to the GolfClubAtlas crowd.

I like #3.
I see David Kelly's point that the back could have some good movement opportunities, but on the other hand how many short par 4's w/ ridiculously difficult greens have we all seen.  In a way, #3 is refreshing in its simplicity.  So what if it's a par 3.5.  I'm not making 3 there that often.  It's harder than one thinks.

Tom

Tags:
Tags:

An Error Has Occurred!

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()
Back