Nicklaus in Nebraska Pt.2

[Jay Carstens]

For those interested, from the Omaha World-Herald (Mar.25):

Nicklaus to design course in Sand Hills

BY STU POSPISIL
   

 
WORLD-HERALD STAFF WRITER  

Three months after he visited the site, Jack Nicklaus gets the chance to create the next golf course in the Sand Hills.

Nicklaus and his team of Florida-based course architects will design the first of two 18-hole members-only courses on 2,900 acres along the Dismal River southwest of Mullen, Neb. The land is a few miles west of the world-class Sand Hills Golf Club that opened in 1995.

The still-unnamed course could become the longest in the state. On his December visit, Nicklaus said he thought its length from the back tees might be around 7,800 yards.

How many visits Nicklaus will make while the course is under construction, a spokesman said, depends on the needs of his design team. The lead designer is Chris Cochran, a senior associate.

"Those are guys who work with Jack from start to finish on routing, strategy, whatever," said Scott Tolley, director of communications for Nicklaus Companies of North Palm Beach, Fla.

"They go in and make sure Jack's philosophy and vision are implemented and decide when Jack needs to go in there. Often on a project, it will be six, eight, 10 times."

Other professional golfers who are course architects, among them Arnold Palmer, also use design teams.

Tolley said there are 227 Nicklaus Signature courses worldwide.

Bill Martin of Denver, an investor in T3B L.L.C., said his group hired Nicklaus Design earlier this month. It also is negotiating with Nebraska-based contractors and public relations firms.

Ground breaking is expected in June, Martin said, with the course projected to open in late summer of 2005. The first phase of the project also will include a restaurant and the first of its lodging units. After the Nicklaus course opens, the main lodge and a pro shop will be built.

Hunting, fishing and target shooting also will be offered on the property. Martin has said the members-only project will be similar in scope and intensity of use as Sand Hills Golf Club.

"There's been great interest so far," said Martin, an attorney with Kutak Rock's Denver office. "We've released our founders and corporate membership documents, and we're hoping for a speedy sellout for the founders program. We're planning an event with Jack in Denver in early May."

Martin said the owners have hired Mike McGetrick of Denver, ranked among the top 10 golf instructors in the nation, as a consultant. Information requests, until a Web site comes online this spring, are being taken by Tony Pasquini at (720) 314-1735.

[Jason Hines]

50k square miles of sand hills in this state and they are putting 5 miles down the road from SH?  Is there going to be a helicopter pad?

Jason

[ed_getka]

7800 yards? Have they noticed the wind tends to blow out there?

With any luck some SH members will jump ship so I can join.

[RJ_Daley]

In some ways to me this is getting to be like the phenomenon of trendy restaurants or nightclubs in cities.  First there is one great club or restaurant.   Studio 54, Rao's, The original Spaggo, you know what I mean.  Then a second bite of the apple happens.  Maybe that one does good too.  But, then it is seen as easy money.  Then a whole rash of ill conceived, theme joints, and garish in design efforts rush in and beat eachother's brains out with no one succeeding in the long run, except the tried and true real classics.

Beware that we are going overboard when a new reality series starts called, Prairie Oyster Jack's "Golf Course", Or Survivor, the Husker series, or who wants to Marry a Dan Proctor?.

I feel this may be especially true with the emphasis on private and exclusively private "sportsman" clubs.  At some point the fad might wane, and then only the golf will be left.  That crowd is always a sucker for the next big thing.  I have heard that there are currently members of the new Sutton Bay that are members of the Sand Hills club.  Now, will they all have the scratch to go ahead and be members of Jack's club too, and then Doak's design, and then Valentine club as well?  Pretty soon, the members start to compare and evaluate the worth and decide that one is enough.  Maybe that will be the real test of the quality of the designs out there in 10-15 years.  Which one will they ultimately opt for, dropping the rest?

I truly believe that a key component is if one of those clubs find a way to circumvent the "escorted guest only" requirement for private clubs.  I just can't believe all these places will survive on the strictly private model.  Remember, the vast majority of the golfing public still look at you and go, huh when you tell them how great golf is in the Sand Hills in the middle of no where.

[A_Clay_Man]

Dick- It sure sounds like a failed model, doesn't it? If they only knew what the real resturants around those parts look like.

Is it being billed as a signature course? If so, Jacks fee will be what? A few dollars short of SH's construction costs?

If this project fails, (as I suspect) it will be a testament to, not only Dick Youngscap's vision, but his discilpline, too.

[GeoffreyC]

Are there any details about the course itself other then the 7800 yard tees?

How much earth are they planning to move?  

[Mark_Amundson]

Dick et al.

I have been reading with great interest the various threads on GCA about the development of the courses in remote areas.  There is no doubt that Dick Y. lead the way with the Sand Hills and showed it can work.  I also believe that every course and every club is developed for a different reason and should be evaluated on its own merit or lack thereof.  Sutton Bay was developed to provide a club for those who like to golf, hunt, fish, and enjoy a get-a-way to a remote location.  It was also developed to bring people to and highlight South Dakota, the state I have lived in all my life.  Can it make it, I am confident it will and time will tell.  Is it a great golf course, that is a subjective topic, I beleive it is but everyone can form their own criteria as to why or why not.  

Everyone has different criteria as to what constitutes great in a golf course, thus the great debate.  It seems to me a great deal of time and energy is spent "comparing" golf courses.  Would not a more logical and sound approach be to judge a course on a set of specific concepts and standards and then suppliment that with specific recommendations, thus making the need for comparions a mute point?  

You make a comment about "escorted guests only" policy.  At Sutton Bay the owners reserve the right to extend invitations to "guests of the club". Thus, there will always be an opportunity for those who want to play Sutton Bay to do so, it just will need to fit in with the schedule of our members.  I believe this type of policy is effective and fairly easy to facilitate.  The reason many of these courses are private is obvious, from an economic standpoint, membership sales are the most logical way to operate.  I believe many could operate as a resort, corporate retreat, etc., if they chose to do so.  Someone on another thread made a very good comment, it went something like this, "if you treat someone with respect they will be willing to work with you". I think this attitude is imperative in all walks of life.

As you can tell, rambling is one of my strong points.  I love the frank discussions held on this site and I hope they continue.  I also hope they maintain a "constructive tone" and those who feel the need to offer opinions can provide sound support for them.

[RJ_Daley]

Mark, the attention to details you and your groups effort have achieved is the peak of excellence.  I'm not just blowing smoke because you had invited us either.  Your project is as good as anything I can think to compare to.  

However, I just don't think that subsequent entries into the specific theme of prairie-isolated golf-retreats will continue to match your high standards or Sand Hills'.  There were grandiose ideas pondered at that other now defunct effort in Sutherland NE.  The west in general is full of boom towns and boom ventures in other fields from agricultural boom-bust cycles ,to mining, to recreational.  Can golf be boom-bust resiliant?  It obviously isn't in other over developed places that have far greater population density and convenient access.   I don't know how many people are in the population profile that fits the type of prospective member that your facility or Sand Hills seeks.  If all these projects go forward, including one I forgot to mention in Rick Phelps new effort up on Lake MacConeghy, well at some point we will begin to see how deep the pool of prairie lovers is.  

I know there is a chasm of difference in the type of lifestyle and usage pattern that exists between facilities that are sportsman-private and public.  Just look at the spread in the typical Sand Hills member and the typical customer at Wild Horse.  Yet, how many Sand Hill members and their invited guests stop at Wild Horse as long as they are out there?  Look at the other thread posted this morning on WH.  Nice enough day, NO ONE IS PLAYING!  And, Sand Hills probably won't be open for another month or more!  I've played WH in June and NO ONE WAS PLAYING!  These are stark realities I for one, one who would have loved to get into the game out there, can't ignore.  

I wish them all well and selfishly hope there are plenty of diverse opportunities to play the most exciting golf to be had in the US, IMHO.  But, as the failed Prairie Sands forwarns, and the horizon full of Nicklaus, Doak, Hanse, Phelps courses in the works looms, it just seems to me that someone is going to get burned.

[A_Clay_Man]

Mark- My comments about a failed model were directly related to the description of the JN project. Not yours. The differences appear to be great, in my mind.

[John Foley]

Is there enough labor in the area to support all the devlopment that is expected? You need labor to maintain the course, feed the guests, staff the office, etc. If it's a summer only plan then I'm sure you can get students from not only Nebraska & the mid west to hunker down for a few months. Is that enough to appease a national membership?

[Mike_Sweeney]

Mark,

The problem here at GCA is we focus too much on the courses. If a course is a 6.5 or a 8.5 on the Doak scale is probably not that significant to the majority of your target audience. Much of what you and the others are selling is a Private Retreat lifestyle that seems to be more and more popular. IMHO, the question is will the Private Retreat market grow enough to support the future clubs. I would guess that all of the courses will be very good.

Sitting here in the density of NYC, my guess is that it will be attractive as an escape for many urban dwellers.

[Lou_Duran]

In my much too infrequent travels one thing that always amazes me is just how much money there is in this country.  And contrary to what we are constantly told, it is in not in the hands of a priviliged few.

Adam, I am unaware of Nicklaus courses in financial distress.  That is not to say that they are all prospering, but typically, his clients are well-heeled and quite capable of doing their due diligence.  I don't understand the economics of projects such as the ones being discussed here, but if I was a betting person, I wouldn't go against them.

In regards to the 7,800 yards, with land not being at a premium, and the wind such a large factor in its playability, that type of yardage would allow for wide fairways with good scale, as well as provide flexibility for course setup under varying playing conditions.   Could you not envision 275+, 500+, and 700+ yard par 3s, 4s, and 5s downwind in firm conditions?

Ed, if you retain an open mind, maybe you may like the new Nicklaus course as much as your beloved Sand Hills.  Perhaps you should request a founder's application and put some of those surplus funds to good use.  Somehow I can see you as a non-resident member of a sands hills course or even Prairie Dunes.  BTW, I loved Sherwood CC in Thousand Oaks.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Colbert Hills plays to 7600 yards from the tips in similar wind.  While difficult, it is not impossible for the college players there.  7800 should be okay if Nicklaus wants a tournament tough course, even with no chance of a tournament.

I am with Geoff.  Just as the Dye course at PGA West is more rugged and unrefined than Nicklaus course there, I would be interested in whether Jack will try to mimic sand hills, or figuring "that's been done" try a more refined look in keeping with his more normal style.  He is going more minimalistic, and the site almost certainly calls for that, but what will he do.  

What will he do?  Inquiring minds want to know!

[Jimmy Muratt]

I doubt Nicklaus will try to "mimic Sand Hills" as I believe that I read a couple months ago that Jack had never even seen C&C's Sand Hills.  I'm sure some of Jack's people have seen it though.  

Who knows what will happen.... Some of Jack's recent work (Ocean Hammock, Outlaw at Desert Mountain) has been much better and he may produce a real gem in the sand hills.  

I'm sure that there is no doubt the land is great and Nicklaus will create some strategic and challenging holes.  The real challenge for Jack and his crew will be to create interesting greensites and bunkers.  

[Rick Shefchik]

Isn't it a common practice -- or shouldn't it be -- to set out each day's tees based on how the wind is blowing? Just because this proposed Nicklaus course has 7800 available yards does not mean the blue tees will be placed at the tips every morning. A 490-yard par 4 is not that long when it's playing firm and downwind; just as a 380-yard par 4 can be too long if it's playing into the wind.

When the college kids come out for a tournament, they might need all of the 7800 yards. In general, however, I think the stated distance makes sense for all golfers in a windy area like Nebraska, so there's flexibilty in how you set up the course.

[RJ_Daley]

Gents,  how many ways is there to "build" a course in the Sand Hills?  Well, on the land as it appears to be available for the Hanse project, and what I assume is prime and typical Sand Hills land that Nicklaus's group has just miles from SHGC, there hardly seems like there are too many other ways to "build" a course.  Such land offers a wide variety of routings to be sure.  It is hard to imagine two architects coming up with the same routing across such interesting land forms.  But, once the routing is set, just how many ways are there to actually "build" and present the course within the scope of any architects reason and conventional wisdom?  

Anotherwords, can anyone really believe that JN and any of his professional design staff are going to go out there and pound the land flat!?  Does anyone think that Gil Hanse or Tom Doak are going to go out there and do Bruce Harris moon faced oval clean edged bunkers?  I don't think Ted Robinsson would even have more than one basic artificial water feature beyond an irrigation supply holding facility, that probably isn't even needed due to the aquifer.  Afterall, who is going to mess with the expense of trying to do a lake and seal it with 100 ft of sand below. And, tree/ornimental planting isn't really a viable option out there.  So, what is left?

I suspect that the end results will all be sort of prototypical of what we would expect to see on the land out there.  Maybe someone will try a bit more of a Royal Melbourne-Australian treatment in greenside bunkering by one or the other of the prospective archies, if they can get the weave of turf and sand to hold together without erosion-crumbling.  But, is there really and architect of any experience that would actually screw it up in a FUBAR sense?  I don't think so.

So we are left with the "amenities".  Sand Hills is a wonderful facility that we see DY himself spend much personal sweat labor maintaining.  They do member service in their own style in a way that comes off as ultra laid-back western hospitality and is in my guess in order to achieve such is actually very focused and talented to pull off.  You all will just have to take my word until you experience it, that Mark Amundson's member services and first rate facility can't be topped, IMHO.  Basically all these efforts are going to turn on member ammenities.   That is where the battle of budgets and member recruitment and retention will occur.  

I can imagine that in terms of golf, it is going to get hard to recall which holes are on which courses due to an overexposure to Sand Hills terrain and vastness without geographic reference.  Sutton Bay and the project on Lake MacConeghy are going to come to love their bodies of water even more than they know, because it will distinquish them in a setting and frame of reference manner that inland sand hill property won't have.

It is fun to speculate, and perhaps the final tally of those that are successful will not be so much in the hands of the architects as it will fall to the visonaries of the overall facilities to be offered and directors-employees of those facilities.  So, with DY and MA the bar is set pretty high!

[Tom_Doak]

Dick,

I think that different routings and different pieces of terrain can produce VERY different courses in the Sand Hills ... just as links courses are VERY different from one to the next.

(Of course, if all you are focused on is what the bunkering looks like, then the great links aren't that different, either.)

The difference will be in the golf holes themselves.  I would hope that in Holyoke we don't have more than one or two holes which someone would compare directly to a hole at Sand Hills.

Holyoke won't be 7800 yards long, either, although after lunch with Jack a couple of weeks ago at least I understand what his philosophy is about that.  [I won't tell for now, because I don't know if he was sharing a "trade secret" or not.]

[RJ_Daley]

Tom, would it be safe to say that the tee pads at 7800 will be very small indeed, and the ones 1000 yards ahead will be quite large?

So, I'm sitting around with my buddies talking about all the trophy courses we played.  A scratch says what a monster that JN course is out in NE.  I say yeah, I played it too, I just leave out that I started from the 66-6800 blocks.  I notice a lot of folk leave out which tees they played Ocean and Whistling...

[ed_getka]

Lou,
   Are you under the impression that I don't like JN courses? I am as open-minded as most when it comes to evaluating golf courses I think. I most certainly prefer fun, quirky courses over "championship" courses, and after you saw me play I'm sure you can see why. I have only played one Nicklaus course which is up in Michigan, The Bear at Grand Traverse. Jack's mandate was to create a very tough course, and he apparently succeeded based on the scores of the pro's who competed there. The course wasn't bad, other than the fairways that dropped off 5-6' on either side, leaving a blind shot into the green from the rough.
   I have heard very good things about Ocean Hammock and Mayacama. Those courses are on my want to play list, and if someone invited me out to see Sherwood I would be happy to take a look at it, but it is not on my list.
    It was a great pleasure to see you golf in the wind at Rustic. That was a fantastic performance (until #16 ).
    I will certainly entertain joining Prairie Dunes when my boys are older and the finances will allow such extravagance. I know I would never get bored golfing there. Although I'm still hoping Sand Hills will have a mass exodus of members so I can join there.

[Joel_Stewart]

I am with Geoff.  Just as the Dye course at PGA West is more rugged and unrefined than Nicklaus course there, I would be interested in whether Jack will try to mimic sand hills, or figuring "that's been done" try a more refined look in keeping with his more normal style.  He is going more minimalistic, and the site almost certainly calls for that, but what will he do.  

What will he do?  Inquiring minds want to know!

I think the answer to your question relates to the site.  I know someone who has walked the land and didn't feel the site was nearly as good as Sand Hills.  

I am completely skeptical of Nicklaus ability to do a minimalistic course so I'll be the first to assume he'll bulldoze the fairways like bowling alleys and create unnatural moundings.

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