[chipper]

Several weeks ago, I played the Rim (Weiskopf and Moorish)and Chaparral Pines (Graham and Panks) in Payson, Arizona.

Due to environmental and topography contraints, every desert course has certain limitations that prevent it from reaching the heights of a great ocean course (e.g., Pacific Dunes) or a great inland course (e.g., Pine Valley).  

But we should be able to compare desert courses with each other.  I do not understand how the raters from the various magazines have determined that the Rim and Chaparral Pines are not superior to Forest Highlands and Estancia.  I believe that the Rim and Chaparral Pines have superior strategic options, visual appeal and balance, yet Forest Highlands and Estancia receive all of the glory in the ratings game.

Do you have any thoughts on this topic?

[jim_lewis]

Two comments:

1.  GOLFWEEK has The Rim (20) ranked ahead of both Forest Highlands (38) and Estancia (39).  So, what's your point again?

2.  The Rim and Forest Highlands are not  "desert courses"


I have not played Estancia or Chapparal Pines, but I personally see The Rim and Forest Highlands as a toss-up. I have trouble ranking either in the top 50 modern courses.

[cary lichtenstein]

The Rim gets my vote...wonderful course

[Jonathan Cummings]

I am going to disagree with my respected friend Jim Lewis - I thought The Rim was the best modern course in Arizona.  He's right that it is more a high desert course with much more grass than you would find in a Scottsdale or Phoenix tract.  Also, someone can correct me, but I think Morrish was gone from the team when The Rim was done.  I think Weiskopf did it on his own.

JC

[Matt_Ward]

The Rim, CP and FH are not "desert courses" -- they are layouts located in the ponderosa pines of Arizona.

chipper: I agree with your assertion on the quality of CP -- not The Rim.

Jonathan: The Rim is credited as a dual credit for Tom Weiskopf and Jay Moorish. Don't know if you have played Whisper Rock but in my mind it's not even close between The Rim and WR as to which layout is better.

I also believe The Rim is not the best modern AZ course. I am a major fan of CP and believe it possesses the better overall terrain and the much greater variety of holes -- holes where the driver can be used.

The Rim cuts an impressive visual picture with the Mongollan Rim in the background on a quite a few holes. From a scenery perspective I can't argue the merits of The Rim. However, if you match up the holes of CP in either a straight comparison or hole-by-hole I believe CP will come out ahead.

One other thing -- people underestimate FH and I salute the Weiskopf / Moorish team for a clever routing in order to deal with the high altitude of Flagstaff.

If people are interested in modern desert courses that are rather fun and unique they should check out the latest addition from Desert Mountain -- Outlaw.

[jim_lewis]

I saw The Rim in October, 2002. At the time I was really bothered by two trees that I felt should be removed. On the 4th hole, a par three, a tree about half way to the hole blocked the left pin placement, especially when the tee markers were left. On the 5th, a par 4, there was a lone tree directly in front of the middle portion of the teeing ground that seemed rediculous to me.  Those two trees really detracted from the course and negatively impacted my rating.  I urged the Super to remove both.

Can anyone tell me if those two trees remain?  As long as they are there, I can not see this course ranked in GOLFWEEK's top 50. Obviously many of my fellow raters disagree.

I know that the word "desert' has many meanings, but the terrain on which The Rim and Forest Highlands-Canyon are located reminds me of the front range just west of Denver. I never heard anyone call that area a desert.

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