Jack is an ASS

[TEPaul]

Here's a cute little Arnie and the gals story.

In 1996 Buddy Marucci was paired for two rounds in the Masters with Arnie for being the runner-up in the US Am at Newport to Tiger Woods.

Later Marucci said those two days at the Masters with Arnie was definitely the highlight of his career--ANGC, The Masters, the crowds and the adulation for Arnie.

They were walking off a tee lined with people together and Marucci heard someone behind him call his name. He turned around and back near the tee was this really good looking girl he wasn't sure he knew in the crowd calling to him. So he went back and just as he got to her and was about to take her hand Arnie snuck up behind him and inserted himself right between Marucci and this really good looking girl!  

[A_Clay_Man]

If Dr. Klein had fun with Bill's forty footer, what's he gonna say about that insertion?

I wasn't quite sure when AP's wife died. But it's clear people respect him, by not flaunting these types of stories until after her passing.

[Andy Hodson]

Jason
What becomes clear from your post(s) is not that Jack Nicklaus is an ass, its that you, personally, don't like Jack. Fair enough. But to call him an ass because he said this may be his last Masters is, as my dad would say, a bit mucking fuch.

I'd be interested to know the context of his statements re next year. If it was a press conference, most likely a member of the press asked him about his long range plans at Augusta. Only an ass would not answer the question. In fact, in my paper this morning Jack said "This is Arnold's day. Let Arnold have his day." Nothing to be knighted over, but pretty classy none the less.

[Jfaspen]

Jack means almost as much to the Masters as Bobby did.  6 Green jackets including the famous charge in 86, give him a couple more putts and he is right there in 98..  Frankly, I think if he had played a tad better this week, he could be "in contention" although I can't see him hanging on to win..  

Were Jack's comments surprising... Yes, if u had not read much of the golf news online...  We will see...  But I can't see jack missing the cut by 1 stroke and that being the straw that causes him not to play anymore.

Jeff

[TEPaul]

Adam:

Winnie being around or not had nothing to do with it. Arnie that way was one of the most carefully guarded open secrets imaginable, particularly on tour.

Oh, I'm sorry, I guess you're not supposed to say things like that about world class idols when there's syrup flowing all over the place, are you?  

[John_Cullum]

I'm proud to say I once played a hole that Arnie had played.

[Jonathan Cummings]

Actually Brad, the 7250+ length is not hurting JN (yet).  The commentators said he was hitting the ball sometimes beyond 300 yards.  He missed putt after putt and said so in the post interview.  Give him 3-4 of those putts over the past two days and he is in the hunt.

Whether he decides to play again is his choice but I think there is little question he still remains competitive.

JC

[John_Cullum]

I saw Nicklaus a number of times on the TV coverage Th and Fri. He was jabbing at his putts terribly. Short take away and an exaggerated accelleration into the ball, with the left wrist breaking down a little. Pretty ugly for Nicklaus. Its pretty amazing he scored as well as he did on those greens with that stroke.

[Carlyle Rood]

Bill: To say Jack Nicklaus ALWAYS personified class is historically not exactly accurate. Nevertheless, what may be even better or let's say even greater is real redemption. That's what I think Nicklaus is about in the final analysis.

Actually, it's perfectly legitimate to suggest that Jack Nicklaus has always personified class.  As competitive and intense as he is, he has always been able to put tournament golf in perspective.  Jack's public persona certainly evolved over his career; but, he has always respected the game and its customs.

It's unfortunate that it took so many years before people began to appreciate him.  He certainly deserved and earned their respect previously.

[Matt_Ward]

I am a big fan of Arnold Palmer the golfer -- not the architect / designer. I was a media member who witnessed the King's final walk up the last hole at Oakmont during the '94 US Open and the aftermath in the media center following the round. THAT moment was indeed special because it should have truly been the end of AP's competitive days. I'll go as far to say his walk over the Swilcan Bridge at TOC in '95 was no less special.

While the situation at Augusta the last two days has been interesting to watch the long AP retirement parade was over a long time ago. I agree that Arnold thrives for the last cheer -- to be embraced -- to connect with those watching him. Unfortunately, I can also remember being in Madison Square Garden and watching an aging Frank Sinantra forget the words to the songs that made him famous. It was truly sad to see someone actually still believe they were what they are.

There is a time to bow out and there is a time when you stay toooooooooo long. The people who understand their legacy don't milk it over & over again. The memories I have of AP and JN come from their glory days when they could compete -- I don't mind them enjoying a few ceremonial strolls but enough is enough.

Regarding the inane statement that JN is an ass -- that is rubbish. Jack Nicklaus has personified class in being the first man to shake the hand of those who have beaten him in some of the most defining moments in golf's history. When Watson knocked him off at the '77 Masters and BO it was Jack who was there to extend a hand and MEAN IT. Ditto the crushing defeat he experienced at the '82 Open at PB.

For those who still believe Jack is competitive I throw forward what football coach Bill Parcells has said many times regarding one's performance -- "you are what you're record says you are." The standing of Nicklaus is etched in stone but his scores at ANGC the last two days are just as clear that it's time to say adios from the main stage.

[blasbe1]

I concede overreacting to Jack's comments last night, he's obviously one of if not the most influential player in the last 100 years and has earned respect.  I have never personally cared for his personality, however (one's man's confidence is another man's arrogance I guess).    

I would expect some on this board, however, to at least entertain the possibility that Jack's comments were somewhat thoughtless.  

This group has always provided frank and critical discussion and while I should have toned down the post the point was to trigger a discussion.  Unfortunately, I seem to be alone in thinking that the comments were inappropriate.  

   

[TEPaul]

Jason:

The interview I heard from Nicklaus yesterday was Nicklaus responding to questions about Jack Nicklaus, his two days in the Masters and what he thought about that. I didn't see any interview with Nicklaus about Arnold Palmer. Maybe we heard two different interviews but whatever he may have said about what he shot and what he thought his future would be in the Masters or anywhere else sure doesn't deserve the type of opening remarks you gave. Forget about having a discussion about that on here even if you do think it was inappropriate.

[cary lichtenstein]

It is inappropriate to call JN an ass for the remarks he made.

JN did take a pretty aggressive negative stance against Casey Martin, and I think that was insenitive of JN and I differ with his opinion.

However, he is entilted to his opinion.

[Carlyle Rood]

JN did take a pretty aggressive negative stance against Casey Martin, and I think that was insenitive of JN and I differ with his opinion.

Nicklaus simply took the stance that walking was a fundamental part of tournament golf.  He didn't want to see stamina negated from tournament play.

What he (and the PGA Tour, and the USGA, and the...) failed to recognize, was that Casey Martin's illness was so debilitating, that using a cart would not afford any advantage to him.  Had they reached that conclusion earlier, then they all could have avoided a tremendous amount of controversy by creating an exception for Martin.  Ultimately, that's what the courts decided.

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

Brad did a good job. I still think this is a post screaming for one Tom Huckaby.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Jason Blasberg,

When, and only when Tiger surpasses Nicklaus's records, then and only then can you annoint him as thre greatest.

Marriage, children, injuries and business pursuits have a way of intruding on a golfers game.   Time also takes its toll.

Nicklaus has stood the test of time., Tiger has yet to do so.

[A.G._Crockett]

"The standing of Nicklaus is etched in stone but his scores at ANGC the last two days are just as clear that it's time to say adios from the main stage."

Matt, does this mean that everybody that missed the cut by two shots or more should now say adios from the main stage?  That will eliminate the following players:
Parry, Maggert, Funk, Curtis, Montgomerie, Toms, Mattiace, Mediate, Perry, Campbell, Scott, Bjorn, and others.

I'll be happy for Arnie and Jack (and Gary and anybody else who ever won the tournament) to play as long as THEY want to play.  Let THEM judge when its time to bow out.  That's what I plan to do with my golf game; why should they be held to a standard that you and I are not?

[George Pazin]

There is a gigantic difference between disagreeing with someone's comments and labelling them an ass who's either stupid or has no class.

Glad to see you've backtracked to a more reasonable position, but I still hope Ran puts this thread to rest quickly.

Funny to see everyone has an opinion as to when anyone else should quit. Guess personal choice doesn't matter to some. I think anyone who won earned the right to determine his own path.

[Bill_McBride]

Brad and Adam - yes, Arnie knocked in a 40' putt on the first hole at Harding Park in the old Lucky International, maybe 1959 or 1960.  Actually, it was one of those Arnie putts in those days that hit the back of the hole, popped up and then into the hole for birdie!  If it hadn't hit the hole squarely, he'd have had one of those 8'ers coming back, hitched up his trousers and knocked it in, knock kneed stance and all!  The man did have flair!  And still does.

Tom Paul, even when the fans were down on him hard for beating Arnie at the 1962 Open (on what was almost Arnie's home course), Jack never lost his cool, never showed a lack of class.  And you're right, he was smart enough to self analyze the situation and change his persona to win over the fans.  I didn't like him much at first myself, but his performance over the years, culminating in the 1986 Masters, had to win you over eventually.

My favorite Arnie - Jack story has Arnie and a bunch of his buddies in the Latrobe clubhouse having breakfast.  After finishing his, Arnie gets up and says, "I'm off to the john to take a big 'Jack Nicklaus.'"   Not sure where I heard this over the years, probably aprochrypal, but what a story to reveal the depth of their rivalry and Arnie's frostiness over the years to Jack.

[TEPaul]

Bill:

Interesting story about breakfast with Arnie. But you know what some say about personal rivalries in golf;

"Just let the clubs do the talking".

[Bill_McBride]

Just curious, Tom, has there ever been a bigger head to head rivalry?  Hagen-Sarazen?  Hogan-Snead-Nelson?  Watson-Nicklaus?  Everything else pales in comparison to Palmer-Nicklaus.  I remember with pleasure the TV series "The Big Three" with JN, AP and Gary Player.  They kept the rivalry under control to make some money in those days!

[Allen_Rebstock]

Jack not as good as Tiger?  Wow.   Right now those 18 majors Jack has is looking pretty good.   18 majors vs. 8 majors. Tiger has a long way to go before he can claim best ever.  

[frank_D]

i think if he reflects on it he might have spoke differently

anywhay it doesn't seem to have affected arnie who responded with "if jack said it that's okay"

i blame the media for poking the microphone into participants faces immediately - before the participant can formulate a more measured response

[JohnV]

I liked the interview with Gary Player on Sunday.  When asked how long he would continue to play he said he had 47 years in and intended to play 4 more to beat Arnie.  He pointed out that he would still be 2 years younger than Arnie at that point.  He was then asked what he thought of Jack's statement on Friday.  He said that when Jack heard that he was going to break Arnie's record he figured that Jack would stick around to break his.  Those 3 were nothing if not competitive.

I'm sure that Jack was very frustrated with his rounds and being so close to the cut and reacted to a question with an answer that was based on that frustration.  Once he gets away and plays a good round or two, he'll think he can still do ok and will be back.

[Lou_Duran]

Re: Gary Player, I suspect that he will have an outside chance to shoot his age at the Masters, and that would be a wonderful accomplishment.  I don't know that Nicklaus will have that opportunity.  BTW, has that ever been done there or at any regular tour event?

Re: Jack Nicklaus, it is an overwhelming concensus here that the man is anything but as asshole.  I've been around him a number of times and am acquainted with people who've worked with him and know him very well.  The only negative thing I've ever heard about Jack is that he can be a bit stubborn, and, at times, he can razz his friends pretty hard.
More commonly, he is described as a very loyal friend and family man, at times hard on himself, and as a person who fully understands what golf has done for him and what his responsibilities are to the game.

Past critics such as Lanny Wadtkins and others from that era can try to knock the Golden Bear down with snide comments about him being a pompous know-it-all-Carnack, but who would anyone rather meet or have a beer with, Jack Nicklaus or Lanny Wadtkins.  I remember once hitting a good tee shot in front of a large group of Oriental engineering recruits at a company course, and while I could not make out much of what they said as they clapped, I did pick-out "Jack Nicklaus" with no mention of "Lanny" or "Wadtkins".

And when other lesser players complained about "foreigners" such as Gary Players coming in and "looting" the PGA Tour, it was Nicklaus who defended a system of meritrocacy as opposed to one of barriers to foster mediocracy.  Had Nicklaus been able to be a benign dictator for the tour, we would not have the blandness and closed nature of the existing exempt tour and the technology issue, particularly the ball, would have been addressed long ago.

Finally, being that this is an architecture website, I would like to know which architect has done more successful, quality courses than Jack Nicklaus without any major brain-farts in the mix.  The last three Nicklaus courses I've played, Las Campana-Sunset, Cimarron Hills, and Sherwood are not short of outstanding.

Arnie may be the King and certainly the most beloved.    But Nicklaus is clearly in a class by himself, and arguably, among the most respected athletes in any sport.  I wouldn't count Tiger out, but he does have a little ways to go, and perhaps his large intimidation advantage has been diminished.