Do you lay-up at #13 or #15?

[Mike Benham]

Mike Benham,

I understand the desire and heroic nature of the shot, but getting to the 210-190 range is an outstanding feat in and of itself.

Patrick -

Originally said in jest but it would be far more probable that most of us could be lying TWO[/i] 190 - 210 yards from the green.

Mike

[Patrick_Mucci]

Rich Goodale,

I've been a + 2 to scratch handicap for about 40 years, and was a zero (0) handicap when I played there.

My handicap has risen precipitously in the last two years due to 5 back surgeries, 4 eye surgeries, and a recent major surgery.

Having played at the highest levels of amateur golf for forty (40) years, I'm more then qualified to make those judgements.

[johnk]

Patrick:


But that's NOT the issue!  The issue is if you are PLAYING rather than just watching, what do you do?  So John, care to answer that?  What would you do from 190 on 13?  From 200 on 15?  

Hmm.  If I did have those shots for the one time I ever played ANGC, I would very likely end up with 2 balls in the water

I still think it's 1 in 20 for the likes of amateurs from those distances to those greens.

[THuckaby2]

JK - but the key here is you WOULD TRY IT, right?

Oh hell, I don't think any of us have any delusions about the chances of success.  The issue here is how much those chances MATTER.  And for a one-time thing, well... to me it takes a lot of guts, or a huge devotion to score, for that to outweigh the necessity to try.

TH

[THuckaby2]

Now shivas my man... that all makes great sense, and your best point is that this is not the same equation as a par 3, because here a layup absolutely does not take birdie out of the equation, whereas on a par 3 that chance is gone...

but....

This is coming from the same man who once told me he lives to make eagles.

Obviously a layup takes THAT out of the equation.

So tell me this:  for your ONCE, and likely ONLY time playing Augusta, you are gonna lay up from a hanging lie at 210?

Hell, that's a choked up 4iron for you.  I know you have that shot.  Oh, it's not LIKELY, as proven by Els.  But I know you CAN do it.

Lots of people make 4's on that hole, I must believe.  Oh, it would certainly be cool to add your name to those who have done that, but it's not gonna make you a hero.

Only an eagle does that.

If we are playing together and you lay up from 210, you are gonna hear some serious abuse the rest of the round, during the drinks afterward, and dare I say for the rest of our living days.  I shall greet you forever more with "Hi, Pussy."

And I say this because 210 for you is like 170 for me.  If I lay up from 170, you can just chop off my penis now.  

 
TH

ps - in our second round, you can layup from wherever you wish with no abuse, and in fact admiration.

[Mike Benham]

But even I wouldn't try that shot when I can bunt something down the fairway and still make 4. That's just stupid and I think Ernie was stupid for hitting it yesterday.

Ran -

There has been a serious breech of security on the board as some imposter has logged in as Dave Schmidt ...  

[Patrick_Mucci]

Dave Schmidt,

It's simple.

4's can't hit the ball like Ernie Els, Davis Love and Tiger Woods.

Secondly, it's one thing to be a four for casual golf, but when the bell rings in a tournament, 4's rarely post scores equal to or better then their handicap.

50 years of observing my dad, his competitive peers and my competitive peers gives me a pretty good handle on what players of varying handicaps can and can't do.

You example of 4's having extreme components to their games is pure fantasy.  As handicaps descend, all levels of the players game improve, without an aberration for the lack of one particular skill.

The difference between a 4, or 5.6 handicap index player and a scratch player is huge, and the difference between a scratch player and a PGA Tour Pro is galatic.

Most golfers have inflated views of their game, not borne out when put to the test.

Bravado and Talk are cheap.

P.S.  Your highlighted statement is absurd.

[THuckaby2]

David:

That's a bit better.  I had forgotten the importance you put on 18-hole scores achieved at famous places.  That is, if a low score is doable, you focus on that.

So status of the round does effect things for you.  I get it.  I tend to place less importance on that myself, but at least I understand your perspective.

I will still call you pussy if you attempt to protect your score in this fashion and then DON'T pull it off.  That is, if yoy lay up and then barf all over and fail to break 80, you get the pussy moniker forever more.  If you lay up and then go one to shoot 72 or something, I say "hello your majesty."

And it's YOUR fault it works this way - you have then shifted the entire assessment to 18-hole score.

 

[THuckaby2]

Patrick:

I for one have no inflated view of my game.  I know I suck big time compared to the big boys.

I'm still gonna go for it in that situation more than I would at home.  It's freakin' Augusta and this is my one chance.

See the difference?

TH

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tom Huckaby,

What you're missing is the inflated fantasy that you can get yourself into the position to go for it.

Now, if you want to drop a ball, within your range, and give it a go, I understand that.

[THuckaby2]

Patrick:

No, I'm not missing that at all.  I understand the difficulty of getting to the go/no-go lines I've determined and in fact actually said it's fantasy, but we are working based on it coming true.

But since you seem determined to not start from this point....

They don't generally let guests play the Masters tees, right?  So ok, that's out.  And even if I could play those, I know there's no way I could get to 200 absent borrowing a rocket launcher.

But put me at the old app. 465-470 tees - as I stated before - and I don't find that to be fantasy.  Oh, it's bloody unlikely, for sure.  But it IS possible.   I have hit 270 yard hooks in my life.

TH

[ForkaB]

Pat

We all know you are a golfing stud (you never let us forget it, do you.... ).  And, while I fully agree that there is a huge gulf between playing off scratch and playing off 5 I completely disagree with you that this entails from the scratch player being able to hit shots that the 5 cannot.  I play most of my golf with +2 to 7 HCP players, and the major difference between the high and low ends of this specturm is consistency, particularly around the green, and mental toughness.  Most of the 4-6 HCP players I know and play with can hit all the shots the +2 to Scratch guys can, just not as consistently.

And, before you tell me that these guys are not playing tournaments, they all are, and at least one of the lower handicaps at my club made the cut at the British Open twice, beating guys like Weiskopf and Crenshaw.  He's still not chopped liver, but he still can't hit any shot that I can't hit, and I'm a 5.

Hell, now that you're a 5, maybe you can hit those shots too!

[DMoriarty]

Go for it.  Definitely GO - FOR - IT.

I wouldn't want to travel all that way just to lay up . . .  I wouldn't want to go all that way to feel the breeze in my face, to feel the grass and slope under my feet, to lay eyes upon the options before me, trying to feel in my bones which option was best for me under the circumstances . . . I wouldnt be caught dead looking short left for a spot to layup . . . My eyes would be glued to the pin.  

After all, playing ANGC is a once in a lifetime experience . . . I wouldnt waste it on actually trying to figure out the best play . . . It is ANGC for God's sake, no place to try to match wits with the greats Dr. MacKenzie and Mr. Jones . . . Why bother trying to see through the Dr.'s camouflage and temptations, hoping to figure out what play is best for me given my circumstance . . . .  Such behavior would not only be regrettable, but unforgivable.  

So what if I might be able to birdie the hole the roundabout way . . . what's the glory in that?  I might as well give my tee time to someone else, to someone who will appreciate the potential glory of the moment, unabashedly swinging away, unconsidered options and unseen consequences be damned.

After all, I wouldnt be there to play the course as MacKenzie and Jones intended it to be played.  What a waste that would be!  There is no story there.  If I ever play ANGC, I will later be telling my buds that I faced 13 and 15 like a man, ignoring everything but the glory swing, making the most of my once in a lifetime opportunity.  They will be so envious!  I will be so glad I made the most of my one shot at ANGC.  

[THuckaby2]

David:

I was wondering if and when you would see this.  Excellent response.  But come on, I want some kudos for keeping my drunken promise and not relating this to a certain hole closer to home.  

Re the substance, I trust you do understand that this thinking applies to the one-time only nature of the visit.  Upon repeat visits, it does change.  But for one time, well... Obviously we differ, but it thrills me more to try and make a heroic result than to PLAY THE COURSE.  And of course you also understand that at least I am absolutely trying to find the best play - I am just choosing to IGNORE IT (or at least err on the heroic side if a choice is to be made), in the interest of heroism.

But I certainly do understand that reasonable minds differ, and in fact, I truly do admire those who can PLAY THE COURSE and achieve their satisfaction and heroism in that manner.

 

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tom Huckaby,

Guests ARE  permited to play The Masters tees.

Rich Goodale,

The difference between a PGA Tour Pro and a 5 handicap is so enormous that it defies description, especially under pressure.

My reference to my historical handicap was merely to counter your contention that I coulnd't relate to better amateur players, not to toot my horn.

[THuckaby2]

Patrick:

Well hot damn.  Put me back there and I shall be able to make a straight-up comparison to my idols, which will be very fun.

And I know damn well 13 and 15 become unreachable.

So I guess from there I get to PLAY THE COURSE.  Should be very fun.  

So is there ANY good layup spot on either hole?  Seriously, on TV it doesn't look like there is any good place to put it, except as close to the creek as possible on 13, and I have no idea on 15.  Please educate.

TH

[Brock Peyer]

Great question but it's a given.  

If you are in a position to go for the green you go for the green.  When I do finally play there and I am within 225 yds of the green and I am not in Hootie's divot, I will go for the green, just as I always do.  I want to be in the position to need to make that choice.  If I am 240 and have a sidehill lie level with my knees, then I will test my wedge game.  

If I do need to lay up, I might just drop a ball in the "go no go" zone and see what it feels like.  

At this point though, all I am asking if for the chance to make the decision.  That's all I ask.

[THuckaby2]

Brock:

Yours does seem to be the majority opinion, by far.  Not that such makes it right, but it's just worth noting.

Others do think differently.  For me it's fun to try and get beyond this, because yep, I too see it as a given... the one chance at glory thing.  What does it take to try and move beyond this and PLAY THE COURSE like the architect intended?  I ask very sincerely - because getting less score-focused has been a goal of mine for many years, and this is that place it continues to rear its head - on famous golf holes in once in a lifetime scenarios.  The chance at glory on these remains just too much for me to resist, if there is any hope for such at all.

How DOES one move beyond this?  Anyone?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tom Huckaby,

Each player has to determine their own comfort zone, and the approach shot that they would prefer to hit.

It's such an individual choice that I can't give you a "one size fits all" answer.

[Brock Peyer]

Huckaby, I love the chance at a glory shot as much or more than anyone, I do, but I know my limitations and think that there is a fine line between a chance at glory and stupidity.  Laying up may not be the heroic thing to do on either hole but the strategy of the wedge shots to the green on each of them can be mind boggling also.  

I think going for the green from 210 on 15 is probably easier than from the wedge zone 70-80 yards from the green.  I hadn't played there yet but I have been there 16 times now and I love those two holes, especially 13.  

I may say that because I play a straight or left to right shot mostly so a sling hook isn't normally in my bag but as I said, just give me the chance to make the decision, then I will have a great answer.

Gotta go, Mr. Palmer is on....

[THuckaby2]

Patrick:

I know that.  Though you seem to steadfastly refuse to give me an ounce of benefit of the doubt, I can play the game a little, and have done so for 32 years.  I understand how golf works.

So I guess I have to spell this out.  Not many golfers like to have hanging lies for any shot, including the shortest of pitches.  Are there ANY flat areas that are accessible on either hole for a layup?  Are there any angles on 13 that makes the shot easier, to different pins?  Same question for 15 - Nicklaus yesterday laid up way right, playing across to the far left pin.  That would seem to me to be an advantageous spot to leave it on 15, with that pin.  Do similar spots exist on 13?

TH

[THuckaby2]

Huckaby, I love the chance at a glory shot as much or more than anyone, I do, but I know my limitations and think that there is a fine line between a chance at glory and stupidity.  Laying up may not be the heroic thing to do on either hole but the strategy of the wedge shots to the green on each of them can be mind boggling also.  

I think going for the green from 210 on 15 is probably easier than from the wedge zone 70-80 yards from the green.  I hadn't played there yet but I have been there 16 times now and I love those two holes, especially 13.  

I may say that because I play a straight or left to right shot mostly so a sling hook isn't normally in my bag but as I said, just give me the chance to make the decision, then I will have a great answer.

Gotta go, Mr. Palmer is on....

Brock - you and I handle this exactly the same, as much as my many verbose posts might confuse this!

Thanks.

[Mike Benham]

Each player has to determine their own comfort zone, and the approach shot that they would prefer to hit.

It's such an individual choice that I can't give you a "one size fits all" answer.

Patrick - so why is your answer above to Tom's question (ideal layup) any different when the player is 190-210 yards from the green in the fairway?

Seems to me you were giving a "one size fits all" answer when they were 190 from the green, regardless of who it is ...

A final question, if YOU were 190 - 210 from the green, what would you do?  (I apologize in advance if you already answered this question early in the topic).

Mike

[ForkaB]

Pat

I know and knew about your fine amateur career.  That's why I inserted a few smiley's.  But, how do you know that Huckaby didn't have just as fine a career too, before he too saw his hanidcap rise from 1 to 5?   All I was trying to prove (by the example of YOU) is that just because someone has a current index of 5.3 doesn't mean that he wasn't once a very good player, and doesn't know what he is talking about.  You do, even though you often might be worng.......

Also, as Dave S. elaborates on my point, there are a lot of legitimate 4-5 handicaps out there who CAN hit all the shots of a Scratch player--nowhere near as consistently, but that's not the point in this hyopthetical exercise.  As Brock says above, if you're at Augusta once and you make it to the go-no zone, you go for the gusto.  At least most of us on this thread excepting you do....

PS--I fully agree with you about the gap in quality between scratch players and pros.  But, we can hit most of the shots that they can hit too, once in a while or at least in our dreams.  That's just one of the reaons why it is such a great game we play........

[Dan Grossman]

Having watched the tournament over the last two days, I am fairly confident that I WOULD go for it on #13 and NOT on #15.  I think the sidehill lie actually my advantage on #13 since the creek goes left to right along the green.  I have a tendency to get over the top and hit a cut, but not on side hill lies.  200 - 210 with a side hill lie is right in my wheelhouse.  

However, on #15 downhill lie over water w/ water in back does not sound like fun.  I'd much rather have sand wedge, even if it is from a down hill lie.  

Point is - the decision depends on how the hole sets up to your game.  Just like most holes, my strategy would be determined by where I think I would have the best probability of making the lowest score.  Assuming that I was 200 yds out on each hole, I would feel much more confident in my ability to make 4 by going for #13 and laying up on #15.