Do you lay-up at #13 or #15?

[THuckaby2]

Patrick:

First, I hope you read all of my posts in this thread... I did make an interesting reference to you.  

Second, the difficulty of the third shot does go into my thinking... although I am most definitely working from imagination, based on TV viewing.  It always seemed to me that on BOTH holes, it's not like there's some golden layup spot that's going to leave one with an easy third shot... Each green is going to be difficult to hit (and more or less so based on pin position, but still difficult in any case), right?

So that being the case, it would make the "what the hell, might as well go for it, dropping and lieing 3 is better than dropping and lieing four" factor into things at least a bit, no?

And again, all this applies to the regular yokel playing, not the Masters competitors, for whom the equation is wholly different.

TH

[John Foley]

Lay-ups are for Par 6's and Basketball & I sure don't see no hoop & backboard out there!!

Did I really read that Dave S said he'd lay up!! Never thought I'd

Boy if we get Dave M on here soon we may have a 20 pager comming up

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tom Huckaby,

If you go for it and miss, especially short, you'll probably have to lay up with your next shot, unless you're filming "Tin Cup"

I believe there are prefered lay-up zones depending upon the hole location.

[ForkaB]

The essence of this thread is that it is AUGUSTA!, and that you have hit a drive to "Position A."

There should be no choice, under these circumstances.  I would gratefully carry a pink tutu with spangles in my bag for any partner of mine (especially including Pat Mucci) who chose to wimp out given that opportunity.

[Jfaspen]

An interesting question to me because #13 at ANGC was the first hole that got me interested in the game.  Back before  I was in HS, my family played, but I did not.  I watched the masters one year with my grandfather and I was struck by the beauty of #13.  From then on, I was attracked to the game and specifically the venues it was played at.  

Almost echoing Tom's original comments, assuming I had hit a decent drive and had under 250 left, I would go for it.  Is a 2-iron off of a sloping fairway when I am already in shock my most consistent shot, hell no.  But just to say I did it.  When I sit down with my roomate tonight to watch the re-broadcast, if I was able to say (I was 10 yards in back, took a big swing and left it short of rae's creek) that would be awesome.  Of course it would be even better to be able to say "I killed my drive, left myself with a 5 iron in and ended up making a birdie"

I think myself, like others who appreciate the various venues of the sport, hope someday to get an invitation to experience first-hand the joy of playing augusta.  And if I did, I would try to play the masters tees again just for the comparison value.  It wouldnt matter that even with my A game on, I would still shoot 85 or so, I would have done what so many others considered amongst the games elite have done.

Until then, I will look forward to watching it on tv and reading about the experiences of the lucky ones here

Jeff

[TEPaul]

I'm not sure how relevent it is, or even interesting it is for a bunch of us who've never even been to ANGC to speculate on what we'd do on #13 or #15 or what that means about those holes strategically. But I think it's very relevent and interesting to discuss what and why a pro in the Master's might decide to do. The latter is a reason why I think Geoff Shackelford's real life examples of what various pros in contention on Sunday decided to do on those holes and why is completely fascinating. Geoff's articles on those holes and those player's decisions and the reasons why are some of the best explanations of architectural nuances I've ever seen.

But as to what a pro may do on those holes and why particularly some years ago when many of them really were on the cusp of "go/no go" decision making on those holes is very intersting in a strategic context.

I've never been to the Masters but I noticed something in this context about particularly premier tour pros and champions and their course management while spending an entire week on the 2nd tee at the US Open at Merion in 1981. On that hole, a fairly dangerous par 5, almost all the well known players and champions where using long irons on that tee on Thursday and Friday. Almost all the other pros were using driver!

If those well known players and champions were a little far back in the field on Saturday or Sunday they too were using driver on that tee but if they were somewhere near contention they continued to use a long iron.

It's probably the same type of thing on ANGC's #13 and #15 and the decision to go or not (although today they really aren't on that decision making cusp as they used to be). Thursday and Friday seem to call for far more conservative management than Saturday (depending on where you are---we've all heard Saturday is "moving day") and on Sunday things become so much clearer as to what to do!

[THuckaby2]

Patrick:

No Tin Cup here.  And I'm sure there are preferred layup zones, which change based on pin placement.  All I meant to say is that even from those, the shot isn't going to be easy.. which factors into the go/no-go decision from way back, as I said.

But of course once you miss, there's no way you're laying up the NEXT ONE, are you?  Say I'm 210 out, and miss short - on either hole.  The next shot is played from way up close to the water, correct?  So why would anyone lay up that?

You're losing me there, oh great one.

Tom Paul:  I'd submit that it's equally fun and interesting to discuss how normal yutzes like me would play these holes as it is to talk about how the pros play them.  Oh, their choices are VERY interesting as well - and your take is fantastic on this - but they're so good and such a tiny fraction of real world golfers as to be statistically irrelevant in the general scheme of things.  Of course what they do at Augusta does have great relevance, given the major championship held there each year.  But you tell me:  did Jones intend for this to be a championship venue exclusively, or to be enjoyed the remaining 150 or so days of the season by the members?  If those 150 days don't matter, than by all means, let's dissect what the pros do and leave out the yutzes.  That is interesting.  But so long as the course does get played outside of the Masters - and particularly since the course is such a place of lore, it brings out what people hold dear about the game - well, it sure is interesting to me how non-pros would treat it.

TH

[TEPaul]

TomH:

You have a very good point there. The Master is only that one week at ANGC as interesting and architecturally relevent as it is and has been all these years. But the course, as you say, does function as just a course for the members and others a far larger portion of the time and surely Jones and MacKenzie were not unaware or unconcerned about that.

Frankly, this very point will probably make me start another thread on a subject I've been toying with for a long long time now. That is---what exactly was and is the function and make-up of the concept of the so-called "Championship Golf Course" design? Not only that but what were the reasons for its initial inspiraton as a concept and where did that come from and why?

It probably isn't all that difficult to determine what the championship courses were and are as the record of tournaments venues is very long now.

But what they were for and who exactly they were supposed to test or accomodate or not test or accomodate and how, could be really interesting. For instance, the inherent design of a Pinehurst #2 or an ANGC as a championship design to test really good players and others is probably as different from a PVGC or even an Oakmont and the way they were designed as night and day!

[THuckaby2]

TEP - that is a very good question... I look forward to that new thread!

So bear with us as we dream about playing Augusta... because on top of everything there, so MANY people get to see it (on TV anyway) but so very few people actually do get to play it, that for most people anyway, there must be a "once in a lifetime chance" aspect to things, which really makes for THREE different ways of playing the course:

championship
one-time or very infrequent visitors
regular members

TH

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tom Huckaby,

What many don't see, especially on the 13th is the sharp cant of the fairway.

While you may be 210 yards out, the shot required may greatly exceed your abilities to execute it.

Having splashed your first ball, reality may sink in and cause you to proceed under a more prudent strategy.

[THuckaby2]

Patrick:

I absolutely believe all of that!  We do seem to have a disconnect though:  to me it's assumed that after the first one splashes, I move up to about 75 yards (a comfortable spot for me), or maybe even closer, and play from there - as allowed under the rules.  No freakin' way do I try it again from 210 - that's Tin Cup/John Daly stuff.  Once is just fine for me, thank you.  Don't know where you're getting that I ever suggested otherwise.

And I think damn near everyone not named Roy McAvoy or John Daly would treat it that way.  

Or are you saying that the next round, I would be more prudent?

That is very likely.  Having seen the difficulty of the shot, the go/no-go would move up even further.

TH

[Mike Benham]

Lay up? do not know the meaning.  . I would not have the guts to lay up. Go for the gusto for me. good lie=green light

Huck and I agree that we would go for the green, even with driver off the deck ...

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tom Huckaby, et. al.,

In order to answer your questions in the proper context, could you and others who have indicated your preference for shot selection, tell me what your handicap indexes/indices are ?

Thanks

[THuckaby2]

Patrick:

Thought you knew about me.  I'm currently 4.6, and have ranged from 1-7 for about the last 25 years.  I don't hit the ball particularly well nor particularly far, but I do manage to score decently most of the time, mainly due to having an OK short game, putting pretty well, and not making many stupid mistakes.

I'm curious to see how that will effect your assessment of my thinking...  

TH

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tom Huckaby,

My general assessment is.

From 210 yards on a sharply sloping right to left fairway, requiring a left to right shot, over a creek that continues to closely wrap the front and side of the green, you don't stand a chance in hell of pulling off that shot.

Sorry, but, that's my opinion.

[THuckaby2]

No need for an apology.  I agree with you.  Of course the sharpness of the slope is hard to imagine seeing it on TV, but I take your word (and the word of others I've talked to who have played there) for it.

That's why I agreed with you long ago that the go/no-go line moves up quite a bit.  Given that hitting and holding the green is the only accomplishment worth savoring (as I've also stated before), I'd need to get to a point where I could hit an iron to have any chance.  I don't practice nearly enough any more, so I have even punted from long irons and now carry these "hybrids" that have become popular... my 2 and 3 irons are the Ping G2 HL model.  Very easy to hit, very easy to get up in the air.  Anyway, my comfortable distances for those are 200 and 190, respectively.  Add in the sharpness of the slope and all other things you describe, and the line gets set at 190 really.  Anything over that and it's a fool's play that I don't even try, even with the full knowledge that this is Augusta and it's my one chance at it.  

So then we factor in what I'd need to do off the tee on 13 to get to 190... and I'm not fooling myself, it's a 3-shot hole.

BUT... if I get it to 190, even fully-knowing that from that distance given my skill level the chances aren't good - I'd put it at 1 in 4 to hit and hold the green - because of WHERE I AM and the once in a life-time nature of it, that 1 in 4 becomes an absolute go.

So how am I doing, coach?

 

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tom Huckaby,

The ability to get your tee shot to 190 in the ideal position may also be well beyond your talent level, and I dont mean that in a derogatory sense.   I mean it in the context of a
4.6 handicap index.

You have to shape one hell of a tee shot to get there.
Overcook it in the slightest and you're in the creek or woods, block it a hair and you're up in the woods.

I can only tell you that I was stunned by the amount of slope on the fairway on # 13.

Nothing that I had seen on TV for 30 + years prepared me for what I actually encountered.

The same goes for the green.
Even the upper tier has slope or pitch to it, and that creek is deep and wraps around that green rather nicely.

Overcompensate by hitting left of the green and you face a green that runs away from you into a creek.  

If the fairways are damp or not in "The Masters" mode, it makes hitting the green in two even more difficult.

This isn't a pushover hole, and remember, the best of the best players in the world lull us into a false sense of ease, as if the hole is duck soup, when in fact it may be humble pie.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tom Huckaby,

Did you see Ernie Els hit it into the creek short and left from 220 yards out with his drive in the left center of the fairway ?

Did you see Davis Love hit it into the creek short and left from 213 yards out, with his drive in the right center of the fairway ??

Did you see Mike Weir and Retliffe Goosen hit their third shots into the creek ?

Did you see Tiger miss the green left from 193 yards out, in the right center of the fairway ?

[johnk]

I think Pat is right on here.  

Many people on GCA could reach a flat 485 yd par 5 or even a 510yd par 5.  However, that's not ANGC 13 and not many are going to be able to sling it on command around the trees.  

If it doesn't end up within 5 yds of the left rough, by the creek, it's  seriously sidehill, and not many on GCA could hit that 210 yd approach over the creek.

15, I think is a lot of balls in the front hazard for most any GCA foursome  Imagine you did thread the needle and get the ball to 220yds away.  Now try that 3 or 5 wood out.  Either you are short, or you bullet it off the rock hard green, over the back into the water.  1 in 20 of us hits the green from there.  I think at most 15% of the pros hit and stay on the green in two.

Finally, if you've read this far, the best part - I'll be considering this thread on Sunday when I stand outside the ropes on these two lovely holes this week. I'll let you know Monday if I change my mind. Woo-hoo!

[THuckaby2]

Patrick:

I did get home in time to see several of those shots.  In fact I got a particular chuckle over Tiger missing the green from exactly 193.  

I just don't know what your point is.  When did I ever say, or even come close to suggesting, that this is a pushover golf hole?  Far from it - I consider it to be one of the great strategic holes on the planet (for the pros and regular players anyway - most of the strategy goes out the windown for one-timers, as I've tried to describe).  In any case I also have a very good sense of its difficulty, regardless of what the pros do there each April - and even they have their failures along with their successes!

So by pointing out the difficulty you are just preaching to the choir, my friend!  I don't doubt this one little bit.

But saying it's difficult and saying I have no chance only has a tiny effect on the go/no-go decision... it does move it up to 190, for all the reasons we've discussed ... but like a great man said about a course on the opposite coast, I didn't fly 3000 miles to lay up.

I will have realistic expectations, for sure.  But that doesn't mean I'm not gonna try.

Get it?

BTW, I said myself it was quite doubtful I could get to 190.  I believe the distance alone precludes that - along with the fact the slinging hook that's required is also outside my expertise and normal comfort zone for drives.  I said above it's damn near certain to be a three-shot hole for me.  So no need to rub in what I already know!  This whole conversation is predicated on the miraculous drive that gets me to 190.  Particularly if I play at the old app. 470 tee, I believe that is POSSIBLE.  Unlikely, sure.  But certainly POSSIBLE.  So we start from that point, and here we are.

One more thing - I'm only a 4.6 now, due to some shitty play in the last few months.  I can be better.  As I say I have ranged from 1-7 for the last 25 years.  Still want to tell me absolutely what I can and can't do?

Whoa... that was a weird feeling defending my game rather than tearing it down.  Talk about outside one's comfort zone.

John K:  the issue here isn't the possibilities of any of us making it, as much as Patrick wants to preach to the choir and change it to that!  I think anyone with any realistic sense of his limitations knows how hard each hole would be. If the pros fail on these - and they do all the time - one would have to be arrogant indeed to think he could do better.  So I absolutely concur with your assessments, and Patrick's.

But that's NOT the issue!  The issue is if you are PLAYING rather than just watching, what do you do?  So John, care to answer that?  What would you do from 190 on 13?  From 200 on 15?  That's got to be more like a 1 in 5 shot - so from there, would you fly all the way home patting yourself on the back for the layup?  If so, you have a very strong sense of purpose as well and I admire you also.  As Brian said, I wouldn't have the guts to lay up.

Now make it 20 yards longer on easy and I do have sanity and just realize my limitations.  But put it in the "reasonably possible" zone, and don't you give it a try?

Anyway, have fun and do report back with on the scene impressions!

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tom Huckaby,

The difference is that # 16 at CPC is a par 3 and the shot was clearly within my abilities.

# 13 at ANGC is a par 5 that requires a highly skilled tee shot, one beyond the ability of a 4.6 handicap index player, just to get into position to be at 210-190 yards, and even from there, the lie and required shape and carry of the shot is beyond the ability of a 4.6 handicap index player.

If Woods, Love and Els can't execute the shot, what chance do you think the average 4.6 handicap index golfer has ?

It's a lot tougher then it looks.

[Mike Benham]

I think Pat is right on here.  

Many people on GCA could reach a flat 485 yd par 5 or even a 510yd par 5.  However, that's not ANGC 13 and not many are going to be able to sling it on command around the trees.  

I don't think anyone made it clear that we are 210 from the green lying one, in fact, any of us could be lying 2 or more ...

Patrick - I don't doubt that it is tougher than it looks but if it is to be my only visit to ANGC and I am fortune enought to be 210-220 from the green, I will give it a go.  In the Venturi vernacular, I believe I could hit that shot at least once with a small bucket ...

Mike

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mike Benham,

I understand the desire and heroic nature of the shot, but getting to the 210-190 range is an outstanding feat in and of itself.

If Ernie Els and Davis Love only got their tee ball to 220 and 213 respectively, what chance do you think you have to duplicate their drive ??

You have to be realistic about your ability to execute precise and very difficult shots.

[ForkaB]

Pat

I fully understand how you, as a 5.3 index player (GHIN lookup, 4/2004), cannot comprehend how those of us with lower handicaps might be able to play any individual hole, including #13 at Augusta.

Rest assured that Huckaby and I are fully capable of slinging a hook (well at least I am....) 300+ yards on a downhill driving hole, and are also not intimidated by the 180-210-yard cut shot off a hanging lie to a hard shallow green (well at least Huck ain't....).  In fact, I successfully executed such a pair of shots not more than 7 years ago.

I fully understand why a higher handicap player such as you would lay up on that hole, but please don't tar the rest of us with your own brush.

[THuckaby2]

 

I think I'm gonna just go with what Rich said here.

Patrick - bottom line is I GET how tough the golf hole is - no need to keep hammering it home.  But the wise elder Bronco Mr Benham sums up the issue here quite nicely.  No matter how tough it is, it's Augusta after all and the thinking changes, for us one-timers.  See, I'd much rather dunk one in the creek or sling it into the woods than NOT TRY, if there is any realistic hope at all.  And the definition of "realistic hope" is very broad, given the place and the one-time nature of it. Second time around we become wiser and realize our limitations even more.

And hopefully you noticed I am steadfastly NOT discussing any other golf holes, especially none in the great state of CA.  I made a drunken promise to a GCA friend about that, one that I intend to keep.  Can't talk about that any more in this context.  

TH