Do you lay-up at #13 or #15?

[Brian_Gracely]

MUCCI DISCLAIMER:  I know many people haven't played the course, but most have seen it enough to feel comfortable to answer.  Pat may blast me for asking (since I've never been invited), but I hold no judgement on those who answer.  

Multi-part question:

You're invited to play ANGC (and don't die from the shock of the invite) and are playing fairly well after the 12th hole.  You hit a great drive and are within position to reach the green with a very good shot (insert subjective requirements here).  Do you go for the green, potentially making 3-7, or lay-up?

Are you worried about your overall score, or the accomplishment of getting home in two?

If overall score is your #1 objective, and you have the same situation on #15, do you make the same decision?  

On both of these holes the 2nd shot (lay-up) is not that difficult, but the 3rd-shot is anywhere from moderately difficult to extremely difficult depending on the club in your hand, the slope of the stance and the pin-placement.  

Now, if the same scenarios arose as a Masters competitor, and a lifetime exemption is potentially in the balance (you can't control Tiger or Ernie or Phil, so you play to your best judgement), do you make the same decisions??


Yes, I know this is hypothetical and wind, how you're hitting it, blah, blah, blah are all potential variables......but what do you decide??

[THuckaby2]

Brian:

Great question.  I believe I shall paraphrase and add to what a verbose GCA regular wrote off-line recently on this exact issue:

If I EVER get the incredible chance to play Augusta, and I am anywhere near reachable distance on 13 and 15, no freakin' way I lay up, and I don't care if I am 8 under at the time.  Of course I won't be playing the golf hole as the architect intended, and I will short-shrift the strategic intent big time, but I've got to believe this is a once in a lifetime chance, and in that case, playing the hole "correctly" pales in importance to me compared to the thrill I'd get, and the life-time memory, if I did reach one or the other in two shots.  I can't imagine an overall score I could achieve that would be important enough for me to "protect" by laying up there.  Now of course there is also such a thing as sanity - and if I am sitting 250+ from the green, hell yes I then think strategically and try to put it in the place from which I have the easiest 3rd shot... But if it's playing anywhere close to where a solid 3wood can find the green, damn right I am going to give it a try.  The folks back home are gonna ask first what I shot, and 2nd what I did on 13 and 15.  If I tell them I shot 72 and laid up on each, all I will get is "nice round, pussy."  

BUT... a Masters competitor obviously thinks more strategically.  Tournament status, how he is feeling, lie, wind, everything plays into the decision, and a very valid choice on each is to lay back and try to make 4 that way.

The same would go for members there or regular visitors... at a certain point, the once in a lifetime, never coming back status ends, and proper thinking begins.

TH

[Dan_Callahan]

Two parts with different answers:

1) If I'm playing for fun on an invite, I go for it without hesitation. What the hell, I'll probably never get that chance again.

2) If I'm playing in the Masters, the situation would have to dictate my decision (I'm assuming that since I'm good enough to be playing in the Masters, the thought of shanking it doesn't enter the equation ).

[Jimmy Muratt]

Brian,

If I hit a good drive, especially on #13, I would definitely go for the green for several reasons.  

First, as you said, by laying up the third shot can be a ticklish wedge shot off of a downhill lie to a difficult green.  Laying up usually can be a safe play, but this is no easy shot.

As long as you have plenty of club for your 2nd shot on #13, playing to the left side of the green gives you ample room.  Even if you are long, the ball should settle in the collection area behind the green.  Most people seem to get in trouble on #13 by going more at the flag on the right which is a much further carry to a smaller portion of the green.

The second shot on #15 is a little more difficult.  There is less room to miss.  Unless I had under 220 yards in, I would lay up.  

I think both of these plays for me have to do with overall score.  If you're an actual competitor in the Masters, it really depends on your position on the leaderboard what you do.  As long as I hit a good drive, I would definitely go on #13, and #15 would be borderline depending on the yardage.  

[Patrick_Mucci]

Brian Gracely,

I'll provide you with what I think will be a generic answer.

The first time I played Cypress Point, I had been playing very well and had a great score going for me as I stepped up on the 16th tee.

The wind was whipping pretty good, the salt spray hitting us on the tee, when the caddy suggested that I could play safe down the left side.

I said, "give me my driver, I didn't come 3,000 miles to play safe"

I don't think you get a once in a lifetime opportunity to achieve your own personal golfing moment in history, or immortality and let it pass you by playing safe.

But, that's just my opinion, I could be wrong.

P.S.  Thanks for the caveat  

[ChasLawler]

My thought on 13 and 15 at ANGC under Brian's stipulations (playing for fun):

"I didn't come all this way just to lay up"

Regardless of score, going for the 13 and 15th greens in two at ANGC is a once in a lifetime opportunity; it’s a no-brainer if the Masters title isn’t on the line. If the title is on the line – there are too many variables for me to even consider giving that one a whirl

The sad thing is, if I was ever lucky enough to actually get an invite and play, I’m sure I’d screw something up on both of those holes off the tee to ensure that I’d never have to make the decision anyway.

[FREEMAHC]

When I played 13 I went for it. It was downwind, I hit 5 iron.

Not that it matters, but I was in Texas, and I didn't go all the way to Texas to lay up.

[Andy Hughes]

Brian
I was just today having a discussion with a friend about the relative merits of laying up vs going for the gusto on 16 at Cypress Point
If the shot is do-able, how could you not?

[JakaB]

Huck,

Would you tell your buddies back home how far up the members tees played...btw...what are the hole lengths from the members tees because I think this question becomes moot from the tourny tees.

[THuckaby2]

John:

Hell yes I'd say what tees I played... and I'd damn well also try my hardest to get to play the Masters tees.  Not sure if it does become moot from those tees, but if so, well then there's your answer! As I say, sanity does have a place in this as well.  But I do also believe in full disclosure.  

TH

[rjsimper]

I go for it in both cases

1- I didnt wait my whole life to play ANGC just to lay up
2- I'd be MUCH more ticked with myself if I layed up and puked one into the water on my third than if I flaired my second into Rae's creek
3- I think I have a better chance of scoring well if I go for it in 2
4- With the nerves that I'd probably have shaking my hands, Id be more liable to chili-dip an 85 yard wedge than I would be to mishit a full out long-iron or 5 wood...


5- YOU ONLY LIVE ONCE!

[rjsimper]

Brian Gracely,

I'll provide you with what I think will be a generic answer.

The first time I played Cypress Point, I had been playing very well and had a great score going for me as I stepped up on the 16th tee.

The wind was whipping pretty good, the salt spray hitting us on the tee, when the caddy suggested that I could play safe down the left side.

I said, "give me my driver, I didn't come 3,000 miles to play safe"

I don't think you get a once in a lifetime opportunity to achieve your own personal golfing moment in history, or immortality and let it pass you by playing safe.

But, that's just my opinion, I could be wrong.

P.S.  Thanks for the caveat  

How did you hit the driver?  

[JakaB]

I find it funny that the same group of guys that think the course has been changed to prevent back nine charges think they can reach each of the par 5's in two....lets see now...10 and 11 were never birdie holes..12 didn't change..13 is reachable by architectural critics....14 has not changed and we all know how to play the Sunday pin...15 is another eagle putt for 40 year old never beens...16 fits Hucks high fade to a tee....17 has a stupid tree that has been there for years....and now 18 is long enough to leave the famous Sandy Lyle bunker shot we all got.....I really want to know what besides buckets and buckets or rain is going to keep away the charges of old..when even you screwballs can reach 13 and 15.

[Gib_Papazian]

Huckster,
I guess it all depends on whether you view the game as a whimsical adventure or not . . . .  

That stated, I cannot see the rationale for playing from the Master's tees unless you plan on hitting the ball the same distance as Vijay.

The point of having different sets of tees is to provide the opportunity to hit the appropriate club into the greens.

I hope you are not one of those looney golfers who decide to play PGA West from the black tees. . . . .

I'd go for it if I thought I could hit the shot and would lay up if I felt there was little chance of success. Now, if I layed up, I would drop another ball and have a whack, but not be annoyed with myself if I managed to pull it off.

The larger question is whether playing Augusta is the ultimate treat in all of golf. I've got 25 friends who have played it as well as many other who have attended to "toon-a-mint."

Not one of those who have played told me it was the best golf course they had ever played. Not one.

I think I would be almost as happy touring the golf course during a practice round as I would playing it. The only thing I would like to see is an up-close look at the putting surface contours and I do not know if you can really have a look from behind the ropes.

Hand me a free airplane ticket and ask me where I want to play on a sunny June afternoon, and Augusta isn't even in my top five choices.

I *get* the allure of the Masters. Yet, it just seems like a stage play, presented every year on a constantly evolving golf course -  and one where no element of the architecture is sacrosanct. It creates great drama; I love it as much as you and am riveted to the television all day on Sunday.

I'm even going to admit to having been invited a couple times, but it was too tough to get across the country on short notice. I guess I am not prepared to move Heaven and Earth to play Augusta National.

Maybe that makes me an idiot.

   

[Brian_Gracely]

Hand me a free airplane ticket and ask me where I want to play on a sunny June afternoon, and Augusta isn't even in my top five choices.

Considering that you'd have to bring your own mower, hit shots over bulldozers and play in 100 degree heat, it wouldn't be on my list either.

The club is only open Oct-May  

[Patrick_Mucci]

Ryan Simper,

I hit a very good shot, a low boring drive that ended up 28 feet from the pin.

After the round, I went back to Pebble Beach where I was staying, and dragged some friends back out to see what I had accomplished.   I was rather proud of the shot, given the circumstances.

At ANGC, my decisions to go or not go for the greens at # 13 and # 15 were based on a realistic assessment of whether or not they were within my reach, distance wise, and shot wise.
Some rounds I went for them, others I didn't.

I think there has to be a realistic assessment of whether your abilities can get your there.

[THuckaby2]

Gib:

You well know that golf is nothing but a whimsical adventure to me.  

So re playing the back tees, it would be all about proper comparison to the pros.  I have no delusions that I hit the ball even close to as far as Vijay - hell I can't keep up with Gracely and Schmidt and Wigler - but I do believe it would be whimsical and fun to have a straight up comparison.  That being said, if I couldn't do it it's not like I'd pout.  I have absolutely no tee ego and bring on the purple challengers if that's what the group wants to do!  But comparing one's self directly to one's idols is part of the whimsy that makes this game great, in the proper circumstances anyway.

And yes, I have played the blacks at PGA West... but only because I was with a group of masochists who wanted to do it and the peer pressure was too much for me.  Rest assured it was a one time thing, and you know what?  At that bastion of masochism, it was kind of fun to take it to the logical extreme.  But once only, thank you.

Now as for Augusta, well... I doubt it would be the greatest course I've ever played if I got to play it either - thankfully I have been to some other nice places.    But the Masters has been a part of the core of my being for as long as I can remember, so actually seeing it in person - and God forbid playing it - would be something I'd cherish without a doubt.  And given it has this kind of meaning to me, hell yes I treat it differently than the standard round at Santa Teresa, and thus standard thinking gets puts aside.  I go for it on 13 and 15 if there is even the slightest realistic chance of making it (and I do have a pretty good sense of my realistic abilities - you should see the irons I hit - typically 2-3 more than everyone else) - like my idol Pat Mucci, I wouldn't have come 3000 miles to lay up.

So anyway Gib - you are far from an idiot, at least this time.    Different people have different thresholds, and different things that turn them on and off about golf and golf courses.  We've discussed Augusta ad nauseam here - for me it's one of the holiest of grails that damn right I'd drop everything to do, and my wife would understand or she'd lose the argument.  It's the home of the MASTERS for god's sake, and for a yokel like me, that's enough.

So is Augusta the ultimate treat in all of golf?  I'd have to answer no, for golf purists and students of architecture anyway - there's been far too much bastardization of MacKenzie's intent for the course to merit such reverence.  But for the rank and file golfer?  It's got to be way at the top, up there with St. Andrews and Cypress and Pebble and Pine Valley and others of that kind of lore.  You know where I classify myself.

Here's the kicker:  when I came back from playing Shinnecock and NGLA and told the boys at Santa Teresa, only ONE had even heard of NGLA, and all they knew about Shinnecock was that it at one time held the US Open.  The common response was "why the hell did you play NGLA when you were that close to Winged Foot".  Now imagine the response I'd get if I came back and told them about playing Augusta... Not that I give a rat's ass what those yokels think, but hopefully this illustrates more the difference between how students of architecture and other golf purists feel, versus the take of the rank and file.

Augusta is a holy grail.

TH

[THuckaby2]

One more thing:  please do understand that I am making absolutely no value judgements about any of this, and for those who would treat 13 and 15 differently and play it more strategically and dare I say correctly, I have nothing but admiration.  One does have to have a very strong sense of purpose to get over the "once in a lifetime, I didn't come 3000 miles to lay up" that seems to ensnare guys like me.  There is certainly no right or wrong in any of this - just different ways of thinking.  Mine is as stated.  Others can and will think differently, without a doubt.

TH

[BigEdSC]

Great question.  I sort of gauge on what I would do on what percentage I can pull the shot off.  If I were playing as an invited guest, I would go for it even if I had a 25% chance.  Imagine the thrill to be able to pull a shot like that off.

But if I were in the tournament, you have to play to the 75% range.  You have to be confident on your abilities and what your head is telling you.

[tonyt]

Sure, I'll lay up and then ponder the remainder of my Augusta-free life wondering.

In informal play, one has to have a crack at #13, and #15 I'd like to but I'd have a long club in and if conditions are firm, knocking it on the green would propel me into more water. So #15 is the one I'd be open minded about but likely to be forced to lay up.

In Masters play, if I'm good enough to A) be invited to compete and B) lead the darned thing on Sunday afternoon, then I'm good enough to do either. Play for the green if the yardage and club selection is comfortable, or layup and be good enough to perhaps make 4. If a Masters participant, I'll have played a few pitches from the layup areas prior to Thursday.

[Phil_the_Author]

As the only way I will ever play it is in my dreams, I see it as happening this way - right after Tiger lays up on 13 & then puts his second into the water on 15 I will knock both of mine within an inch of each hole in two!

[DJM]

Gary Wolstenholme (current British Amateur Champion for those that don't already know) has come out and said he'll be laying up on both for the whole week - if you could make four at both each day then why not.

How would I play it? Try and make it on in two and clank my way off the green if successful. Mind you, it's tough to get on in two from the trees...

[Brian Noser]

Lay up? do not know the meaning.  . I would not have the guts to lay up. Go for the gusto for me. good lie=green light

[THuckaby2]

Dave S:

Great point re the 3wood.  And yes, obviously only hitting and holding the green is the accomplishment worth savoring.  So that means to me that the go/no-go line is quite shorter than it otherwise might be - because you're right, 3wood into either green is a fool's play that falls outside the bounds of realism.

But where I think I'd differ from you is that I still can't imagine a competitive situation that would effect my decision-making.  Not in real life for a yutz like me, anyway.  I don't care if I am 8 under, 18 over, 4 up on you or anyone here in a match,4 up on several hundred dollar presses, whatever... to me, none of that equals the very real issue to me of what Tony T. said - that I'd spend the rest of my post-Augusta life wondering what I could have done.

Now of course for players in the Masters it is an entirely different equation, and Gary Wolstenholme's plan is entirely valid.

And again, my thinking above also goes out the window if and when the "once in a lifetime" nature of being there ceases.  While that would be wonderful, I don't see that as real also.  But if I got to stay there three days and play it 6 times, by the second day I would be playing strategically and thinking correctly.

Just not the first time... or the second, methinks...

Brian N. - well phrased.  For the reasons I say above, so long as the once in a lifetime feeling exists, no way I have the guts to lay up either... not if a realistic chance of hitting and holding either green exists, anyway.

And I do admire those who have that kind of guts, also.

TH

[Patrick_Mucci]

Dave Schmidt,

If you're 8 under, logic would say that you have a better chance of hittiing the green, versus you being 8 over and trying the same shot.

But, what few understand is how difficult the 3rd shot is.