I was wrong

[Jeff_Stettner]

I was wrong. Post deleted. Apologies to all.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

It may be if you are the defendant in a libel suit.

[ChasLawler]

Jeff - While I don't know a thing about any of the courses you mentioned, I did notice you seem to be placing all of the blame on the architect. Equally as important in any restoration/renovation project is the construction crew - the guys who actually put the design in the ground. There is but so much an architect can do when paired with a poor or inexperienced construction team. As with most things in life - you get what you pay for. The cost difference between your average sitework contractor and a golf course specific contractor can be fairly significant, and something many clubs seem willing to skimp on.

[Gib_Papazian]

Laddie,
I write this as I am about to leave Philly for a drive to Manhattan, so there is little time to spank you for one of the most out-of-line posts in the history of GCA.

Evidently, your recent matrimonial plunge has done little to dull your literary chainsaw. And while it is perfectly alright to criticize work in a rational fashion, I must stand with redanman on this one.

Doug did a spectacular job at Cal Club. Somebody had to decide which trees to fell and where to put the new bunkers, and IMNSHO the golf course has gone from a decent also-ran to one of the finest in our golf-rich state.

The detail work on the bunkers at Cal work beautifully, and the rough lines actually make sense. I'll bet you cannot even tell where he built new tees because they have been blended so well into the natural surrounds - that with the addition of fescue around the tees to provide texture and definition.

Remember, this is the guy who built the Prince Course when working for Jones, Jr.

The problem at Sequoyah is one of rudderless mismanagement. We both know that the club had the opportunity to build those Chandler Egan redesign plans - which were beautifully updated by Nickels.

Somehow, they thought they were once a Raynor course, but you and I know that the registry in the Southampton Surveyors office that George Bahto found means nothing.

It looks to me like they built it VERY loosely to his plans - if that.

The 18th hole wasn't bad before they decided to install that stupid Cayman Ball driving range and move the green.

Personally, I really enjoy your golf course - even with its endless flaws. However, your directors need to decide what their priorities are and actually assemble a masterplan.

As it is now, the piecemeal approach has not really improved the golf course a bit and that PUTRID rebuild of the par-3 12th (done in-house in such a ham-handed fashion that I burst out laughing when I saw it) is a perfect example.

Your #1 is a sow's ear. Okay, he did not make it into a silk purse, but at least it is a pigskin wallet . . . . . . With the location of the tee, I do not see how it could have been much better.  

Instead of trashing Doug, why don't you devote your last remaining months before moving to convincing the club to BUILD THE EGAN PLANS.

Those dimwits have a chance to raise a Golden Age golf course from the grave and instead worry about minutae like tinkering with the 1st hole. Doug just does what he is told.

I know him. He is talented, thoughtful and respectful of the Golden Age architects.

It was his idea to build those Egan plans and the club opted not to do it. Don't blame him for the way the course looks. If they had taken his recommendation, you would be thrilled.

[Gib_Papazian]

And while you are at it Jeff, if you want to know what was there before, get rid of that pedantic Englishman historian.

He was so busy researching (and cataloging) the dining room linen expenditures from 1937, he never noticed the framed routing plan on the wall of your archives room!

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

Geez it hurts when the master spanks the pupil. Jeff, Lets have some wine at Sequoyah after a round together and I  will blister that Nichels guy.

[Doug_Nickels]

Jeff,
To say I am flabbergasteded would be an understatement.
If you want to discuss any of my work that you are so critical of please give me a call - 415-884-0626.
We met one time a couple of years ago when I invited Gib to play at the Cal Club and he brought you along.  We had a great enjoyable round of golf and I would expect a phone call before being slammed.
And to say my work looks like Graves - ouch!

[Jeff_Stettner]

Doug,
You have my apologies. You and I will talk on the phone.

Jeff

[Gib_Papazian]

Jeff,

If I were you, I might think about 'spaining yourself Lucy."

Architecture is full of assholes. I had an accusation relayed to me last night - second hand but from an unimpeachable source - that I somehow offended a famous architect one night a few years ago.

The fact is, I answered his queries fully and completely and even offered to host him as a guest at my club. He was absolutely clear from the outset that he hated GCA - and many of my good friends who contribute to this board.

However, I tried to be as deferencial and nice as an inflammatory Armenian is capable of. . . . . evidently, it did no good. The kiss of death was admitting a close friendship with The Emporer and an aquaintance/friendship (and a touch of admiration) with a certain "Maverick" architect who has particularly pissed him off.

However, although this "Doctor" has arison to the top of his profession and bristles at the carping of fans and foes from the sideline, he does not take the time to explain or defend his choices.

Doug has COMPLETELY EXPLAINED THE RATIONALE FOR EVERY SINGLE MOVE HE HAS MADE every time I have asked. I do not always agree, but I cannot say that ever once his choices did not make sense.

Your club is full (with two exceptions) of idiots. I'll repeat myself:

If they would just quit worrying about their non-existent pedigree and build the Egan plans with his modifications, your club would be a hidden gem. You would have to kiss Doug's ass on Main Street in embarassment for what is still one of the most horrendous, un-called for and blatantly wrong, false, stupid, arrogant, inflammatory, pompous, petulant, nasty and ill-informed utterances ever to come out of your young - and quite brash - pie hole.

Now call him and apologize right now or I am going to bitch slap your ass when I get home.

-G

P.S. Perhaps J.J. needs to edit your future posts at 3am when you have a hard-on and no place to put it.

   

[Jeff_Stettner]

Gib,
you are correct.

Doug has done a number of very good things for golf clubs in California. Sometimes, in the world of Internet, we forget that there are people involved here. My post was far too harsh and I have done more harm than good. Call me corrected.

[Michael Dugger]

Jeff,

I know none of you fellows but this has been entertaining to read.

That said, let me be the first to say that you are a stand-up guy to admit where you may have popped off a little too quickly.

Furthermore, I can relate to wanting to sound off about something and getting a little carried away.

Let it slide off your shoulder

[Joel_Stewart]

Jeff:

Don't let this get you down although I would have thought Head Royce would have trained you better

I do like your convictions.  Please play Harding Park and TPC Valencia and post your thoughts on Chris Gray to expose a real hack architect.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Jeff,
Not having the time to get into this earlier today, I'm glad you came to your senses!

First-Everyconversation I have had with Doug Nickles has been a really informative one. He was pretty excited to the fact that he was going to be working on a Egan course, especially with all of the history at hand, and while I haven't talked to Doug in a while, I'm sure that having to further compomise an Egan design further didn't sit all that well. Still I'm sure he gave them the best job he could, as he did at Cal Club, which from images and when seeing in person, exactly the amount of trees he was able to convince them to raze was more then impressive and recaptured the great nature of the Cal Club.

But it takes a man to admit fault, and you have done that--just like the class act that you really are.
 

[JakaB]

Tommy,

You could learn something from Jeff...

[Tommy_Naccarato]

John,
So what is your experience with the work of Doug Nickels and what do you think of his work? Hopefully you have something positive to add since your such a positive person.  Or are you simply going to talk out of your ass like you always do?

[JakaB]

I don't know anything about Doug Nickels...but I do know alot about being wrong and forgiveness..and I forgive you Tommy for being wrong so often.

[Gib_Papazian]

Fuque everybody. Let us all be friends. The kid popped off . . . . so have I.

Nickels is an unsung artist. This is hardly a reprise of the Damian Pascuzzo 666 post.

Kid,
Nice mea culpa. You made more friends than enemies.

[jg7236]

Jeff,

I have no idea what this discussion is all about since you deleted your discussion topic.  You probably had a few bottles of two-buck-chuck and you got a little crazy, that is understandable.  


Cheers,

John

[Jeff Fortson]

Give Stettner a pass on this one.....

He was just having flashbacks of listening to one of my diatribes while playing with me at the KPIII.

Jeff, I hope you didn't compare anyones' work with "Two Buck Chuck".


Jeff F.

[David Wigler]

Jeff,

Before I write the body of my post, from a disclosure standpoint, I should say that I only saw Cal Club after Doug's work and was impressed with it and have never seen your home course.  I therefore have no base line to say Doug's work was good or bad (Other than I liked Cal but may very well have liked it as much before he got there).

I hope you were wrong because you rethought your position and decided that the mistakes were not Doug's fault and not just that he called you on it.  Convictions are a good thing.  Tom Doak still brings up my comments about Quail.  I used inappropriate language but felt my evaluation of the course was sound.  One thing you are clearly wrong about is basically every single one of your political views.  Would you apologize for being so clueless if GWB posted a note saying to call him?

[Jeff_Stettner]

David:
I am firm in my apology because of the approach I took. I was far too aggressive and confrontational. The issues I have that may or may not be valid get lost when I scream them instead of express them.
Maybe I would not have been so harsh had I been given the chance to discuss politics with our faithfil leader. All that pent-up anger just wafting away.
As the reason behind my original post, I will not shy away from my concerns. After speaking with Doug, I will revisit them in the future after the work is finished.  

[DMoriarty]

While it is hard to admit, I agree with Shivas on this one.  If Jeff's original post was as off-base as some seem to think, then it shouldn't have been too much trouble to set him straight by addressing his post, rather than by attacking Jeff, for what I am sure was his honest opinion, at least when he wrote it.  

Even if his tone was off-base, there are better ways to address this than shouting him down and guilting and embarassing him into apologizing and pulling his post.   I am sure there are circumstances when it is appropriate to apologize for something said in a post (I've probably owed an apology or two myself) but I'd like to think that these instances are very rare.  

Also, this censorship by indignation poses a real potential problem for this site, especially when it comes to 'up-and-coming' designers.   Many of us know some of them personally, some of us might be their good friends and/or are vocal admirers of their work.   And some posters seem to take criticism of their favorite 'young gun' rather personally.  I cannot help wonder whether we sometimes give these young guys wide birth out of respect for their supporters here on the site.  If so, then this is a shame.

My understanding of the discussion group is that it is supposed to be about the free and frank discussion of golf course architecture.  The discussion just wont be free or frank if posters treat criticisms of certain architects as they would insults about their mothers.  

[guesst]

. . . Opinions change.  People's thoughts change.  Guys get all fired up or down on a course, then re-think their positions.  

Now, Shivas, are you expecting us to believe that you once changed your mind?  That one is hard to swallow . . .