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wsmorrison

Rather than look at the "selling out" by different architects, I would rather consider a different sort of analysis.  Which architect's body of work showed the most marked departure of design practices late in their career compared to their early works?  

TEPaul

Re:Which architect changed his design practices the most over time?
« Reply #1 on: April 04, 2004, 07:36:16 PM »
What a good question!

If one considers the width or breadth of the spectrum of change it might be hard to top Desmond Muirhead. As to the reasons why I'm not sure I want to get into that again now although TommyN or some of those who knew him might.

Mike_Cirba

Re:Which architect changed his design practices the most over time?
« Reply #2 on: April 04, 2004, 07:37:55 PM »
I'd venture Jack Nicklaus (for the better) or Tom Fazio (for the worse) among modern architects.

Much of Jack's early stuff was unplayable for the average guy but his newest courses seem to be eschewing the "Championship course" concept and seem much more low key with their surroundings.

Fazio's best work came back when he limited himself to six courses a year.  Since becoming Fazio Inc., his batting average has dropped precipitiously, with all of his work "good", but little of it particularly interesting, much less groundbreaking or "great".  

TEPaul

Re:Which architect changed his design practices the most over time?
« Reply #3 on: April 04, 2004, 07:41:43 PM »
Another pretty good candidate for discussion could be Ross himself. He started so early during such a strange and then incipient time in architecture and his career was long through some really interesting transition times! Got to go eat dinner but this is a great subject.
« Last Edit: April 04, 2004, 08:14:20 PM by TEPaul »

A_Clay_Man

Re:Which architect changed his design practices the most over time?
« Reply #4 on: April 04, 2004, 07:57:39 PM »
While this isn't truely on topic, Press Maxwell's changes in design practices (especially at green end) can be seen and felt on one course. At Conquistador in Cortez, Colorado. The nine or ten years differences between his front nine and the backnine are palpable to the extent that one was very old school (using the terrain) and the newer greens were clearly constructed with the modern flair of manufactured looking fall-offs on almost every side.

RJ_Daley

Re:Which architect changed his design practices the most over time?
« Reply #5 on: April 04, 2004, 08:14:12 PM »
How about Bendelow?  From rudimentary layouts in the 1890s staked out across so many rolling properties with little or no shaping or grading, to Medinah, Oly Fields, and his last fully designed works with American Park Builders.
« Last Edit: April 04, 2004, 08:14:44 PM by RJ_Daley »
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

wsmorrison

Re:Which architect changed his design practices the most over time?
« Reply #6 on: April 04, 2004, 08:29:21 PM »
I have been concentrating so much on the study of William Flynn that I admittedly need to see much more work by other designers.  This is one reason I asked this question...I have no idea who showed the most change over a career.  

I have seen a bit of Ross and his green outlines certainly changed dramatically over time from geometric outlines, to flares at the corners of square or rectangular greens, and finally to some really great shapes at Charles River and perhaps his last great course (according to TEP) Aronimink which I had the pleasure of walking today in some dreadful weather with Tom Paul and Ian Andrew that followed even worse weather earlier when  we got pelted by rain and snow while walking around Rolling Green--oh, and 40 mph winds.
« Last Edit: April 04, 2004, 08:43:49 PM by Wayne Morrison »

DMoriarty

Re:Which architect changed his design practices the most over time?
« Reply #7 on: April 04, 2004, 08:30:14 PM »
How about William P. Bell?  

Before the depression and WWII he built Thomas' great bunkers, did Thomas' drawings for his book, and is given co-credit by Thomas for some of the Captain's best courses.  He also designed a number of top-quality courses (most of which are long gone) on his own.  

In the mid-40s his son joined him and the work took on a decidedly different form.  In fact it is hard to believe he had much to do with some of their co-projects at all.  
« Last Edit: April 04, 2004, 08:30:48 PM by DMoriarty »

Lloyd_Cole

Re:Which architect changed his design practices the most over time?
« Reply #8 on: April 04, 2004, 09:37:11 PM »
I'd be suspicious of anyone who had exactly the same ideas at 35, 55 and 75.

JakaB

Re:Which architect changed his design practices the most over time?
« Reply #9 on: April 04, 2004, 09:51:50 PM »


Fazio's best work came back when he limited himself to six courses a year.  Since becoming Fazio Inc., his batting average has dropped precipitiously, with all of his work "good", but little of it particularly interesting, much less groundbreaking or "great".  

How about backing this up with some opinions of courses completed...Matt Ward seems to think Dallas National is pretty good and it is new......Maybe the problem is in how many course Andy Banfield is the lead man on...I don't know he has ever done one deserving of such a left handed comment as "good".

wsmorrison

Re:Which architect changed his design practices the most over time?
« Reply #10 on: April 05, 2004, 08:14:14 AM »
Lloyd,

I agree with you that it is highly unlikely that any architect had exactly the same ideas at 35, 55, and 75.  But in fact, many golf architects of the pre-WWII era didn't seem to live near the average life span.  Few seemed to live to 60.  Whether due to the bottle or the business, it is hard to say.   What I'd like to figure out is what architect(s) seemed to change the most over time.

Honestly, when I think of the relatively limited design output of Flynn over a period of 35 years, I am hard pressed to think of the ways he evolved his design practices.  He was showing elements, as Tom Paul has observed, of being a transition architect, that is bridging the classic age with the modern age by utilizing elements of the ground game and aerial game within courses pretty early on in his career.  

Certainly one design area of Flynn and others that did change and must have reflected a sympathetic culture that allowed a different view of golf course design was the development of championship courses.  These were designed as serious shot testing courses that weren't for everybody.  The best and a very early example of this is at Pine Valley begun in 1912 and finished in 1921.   Flynn started building such courses including Huntingdon Valley (1927) among others in the 1920s through the 1930s with his greatest design at Shinnecock Hills in 1931.   The stock market crash, WWII, and Flynn's death in 1945 did not allow us a chance to see what he would've done in post-WWII America.  As other classic golf architects passed away or stopped designing, it is interesting to imagine what directions golf would've taken had Flynn lived and worked another ten years or so.  

Flynn's earliest designs, such as Kilcare GC in Heartwellville, VT (begun in 1909) and Doylestown CC (1916) were fairly rudimentary with squarish greens and repetitive bunker designs around the greens.  However, the CC of Harrisburg (1916) and Eagles Mere (1917) look far more sophisticated.  Flynn's designs from 1920 onward showed an amazing consistancy in excellence.  Early on he was a daring router of golf courses, used perception and psychology in his designs to lead and mislead golfers.  Likewise, Flynn at an early stage and throughout his career used natural lines and where there was a lot of engineering, made the sites look natural with great care and expense.  Flynn believed natural lines were not only more appealing to the eye and to play but also that they would be less expensive to maintain over time.  

An artifact of Flynn's method of operation that needs to be taken into account in an analysis of design changes over time is that on many projects he continuously "improved" the design and made changes on individual courses, sometimes over long periods of time.  Merion was constantly being worked on from its opening in 1912.  It was in 1934 that significant changes seemed to come to a halt.  Cascades (opened 1923) was tinkered with yearly through at least 1935.  There were bunker revisions at Rolling Green begun just after its 1926 opening and on through the 1930s.  These changes make it hard to see how Flynn's designs were evolving since on numerous sites he went back and made revisions to represent his most contemporary philosophy.  

BCrosby

Re:Which architect changed his design practices the most over time?
« Reply #11 on: April 05, 2004, 08:45:01 AM »
Nobody changed more than RTJ.

Trained in the '30's by Stanley and other Golden Agers, RTJ was imbued with their design theories.

He was hired by Bobby Jones in '47 to build P'tree precisely because of his connections with the Golden Age. Jones's mandate - as at ANGC - was that his architect build a course using design principles embodied at TOC. (RTJ had very limited success on that score at P'tree, imho.)

Soon after, RTJ does an about face. A 180 degree reversal. He signs on as the Open Doctor, advocating narrow fairways, high roughs, and play channeled down a central corridor. He adopts the USGA view of things as one of his central design precepts.

By '55 he had developed his "heroic school" theories as a modern alternative to the outdated "strategic" and "penal" schools.

During the same period he is putting down the Golden Age courses of his mentors as old fashioned, unscientific and too expensive to maintain. (There is a chapter in the history of gca to be written about how many Golden Age courses RTJ "rationalized" in the 50's. Hundreds of clubs bought-in.)

I could go on. Suffice it to say that the RTJ machine contined to drift farther and farther from his roots in the '60's and '70's.

No one changed more than RTJ. He saw his main chance and he took it. Quite conscioulsy too. He wasn't hiding any balls. Just read his stuff.

Bob    
« Last Edit: April 05, 2004, 09:02:31 AM by BCrosby »

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