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Adam_F_Collins

Total designs?
« on: April 09, 2004, 09:22:44 AM »
Building architects such at Frank Lloyd Wright and Antoni Gaudi would often design a building as well as everything that went into it - furnishings, artwork, lamps, carpets, etc.

(It's said that when a client couldn't afford him for the furnishings, Wright would recommend Gustav Stickley.)

Are there/ were there any such "total designs" in Golf Course architecture? I'm sure not down to the lamps, but where do we see architects going beyond the course? Have there been designs where the architect has had a lot to do with the design of the clubhouse, the choice of a name, what the scorecards looked like, etc?

As well, do we have any examples of a Golf course architect working on more than one site  hand-in-hand with a building architect - where the two respected the other's sensibilities and their work complimented eachother well enough to create a more complete, total design?

paul cowley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Total designs?
« Reply #1 on: April 10, 2004, 12:37:25 AM »
adam....although never considered wrightian ,i have on more than one occasion designed the golfcourse,clubhouse,the land plan,amenities,and residential components.....not to mention the landscaping....didn't [but would ]do the furniture and interiors..........just staying aliiiiiiiiiiiiiive  :)
paul cowley...golf course architect/asgca

blasbe1

Re:Total designs?
« Reply #2 on: April 10, 2004, 12:51:22 AM »
"Total Design?"  

Adam, just about every GCA has argued with a  Developer/Clubhouse Arc. over a clubshouse location . . . sometimes it's as simple as road access, others times it's fighting over a vista . . ..  The concept of "total design" is a little scary . . . there are no roofs on golf courses . . . don't try to build any!  

TEPaul

Re:Total designs?
« Reply #3 on: April 10, 2004, 09:04:42 AM »
I'd sure vouch for that poster above--Paul Cowley, in this regard. I was amazed at all the things he can do and has done!

But to answer Mr Collins question, there sure was a developer/golf architect/building architect that did more than one project together and in total concert---matter of fact one club was directly responsible and in fact the complete inspiration for the other. Even the same people ended up working in both seasonally.

The club, course, clubhouse and residential plan of Mountain Lake Florida was a collaboration of golf architect Raynor, building architect Olmstead and Baltimore developer Fredrick Ruth. I believe Mountain Lake may have been the first totally planned golf course/ planned residential community in the world---1915!

The owners of Fishers Island were so impressed they hired the same three---Raynor/Olmstead/Ruth to do the entire Fishers Island club, clubhouse (actually at first small hotels at both) and residential community.


TEPaul

Re:Total designs?
« Reply #4 on: April 10, 2004, 09:07:55 AM »
Another and very interesting way to look at this question although perhaps not as specific is to read carefully some of the cross-overs between golf architecture and building architecture in Tom MacWood's really fine five part essay on that really interesting time of the "Arts and Crafts Movement" found in the "In My Opinion" section of GOLFCLUBATLAS.

Adam_F_Collins

Re:Total designs?
« Reply #5 on: April 10, 2004, 09:07:58 AM »
I'm not sure I know what you mean, Jason...

TEPaul

Re:Total designs?
« Reply #6 on: April 10, 2004, 09:11:04 AM »
Adam:

Don't worry about what Jason Blasberg says---he hasn't been himself recently! We'll get him with Dr Katz one of these days and he'll be hunky-dory again  ;)

Adam_F_Collins

Re:Total designs?
« Reply #7 on: April 10, 2004, 09:12:27 AM »
TE Paul

Thank you for that example. As I read your post, I wondered if there was any such repeated group efforts with Stanley Thompson and CP Rail. They did Highlands, Jasper, Banff, Digby Pines, Royal York - (now St. George's)...

I wonder what firm(s) were used for the various hotels?

Adam_F_Collins

Re:Total designs?
« Reply #8 on: April 10, 2004, 09:34:19 AM »
Paul Cowley

Interesting. Do you find that you are more satisfied with the jobs where you do the total design? Or are you able to just focus on what your part is and not get caught up in what you can't do much about?

For instance, you build a course to your satisfaction, and the developer decides to create a clubhouse that you don't really find compliments the landscape... - ever happened?

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re:Total designs?
« Reply #9 on: April 10, 2004, 09:34:28 AM »
Adam,

I've been asked to take the reins for as much of Harmony Club as I want -- clubhouse, cottages, landscaping, etc.

That would be cool but a little frightening.  I'll try to help them find good people to handle those aspects, and to stay involved in the conversation ... but I'd rather stick to what I'm good at, especially if I could be building another golf course at the same time.

Adam_F_Collins

Re:Total designs?
« Reply #10 on: April 10, 2004, 09:46:44 AM »
Understood Tom, but then again, you may find that you're good at more than you know.

I'm feeling more an more that design thinking can overlap more easily into more areas of design than a lot of people think.

A lot of what it takes to be a great designer is being aware of what you don't know - surely. But just gaining that awareness requires some testing of the waters in other areas.

You do know a lot about how a person moves through a landscape, how different constructions effect the natural environment and the appearance of what is natural. You must have a strong sense and setting and maintaining a theme or mood. You also have a lot of experience with the coordination of multiple efforts from people with varying skill sets...who knows how these sensitivities can be utilized in other areas?

Luke - use the force...let it move through you and guide you...

Bringing in people who you feel are good in those areas will allow you to have solid support where you 'hit the wall' and really DON'T have a clue. But I imagine you'll be able to offer a fair amount to the collaboration.
« Last Edit: April 10, 2004, 11:56:35 PM by Adam_F_Collins »

TEPaul

Re:Total designs?
« Reply #11 on: April 10, 2004, 09:47:40 AM »
The reason I said that about Paul Cowley is not that long ago we were driving around St Simon Island Georgia---for any of you who want to go to heaven and aren't sure you'll make it there in the final analysis, go to St Simons Island Georgia first!---and as we were driving through the town we went by this really gorgeous old world looking buiding and Paul pointed to it and sort of incidentally said, "I designed that!"

I thought to myself, man, this guy does it all after he showed us photos of his course and hole designs and all the other general land-planning and stuff he does and can do.

It's impressive to me to be able to do all those things well. On the way home I started thinking what I was really good at. After a few hours all I could think of that I'm really good at is lying on sofas. Matter of fact, my entire extended family are some of the greatest experts in the World at lying on sofas but of all my family there's no one at it as good as me!
« Last Edit: April 10, 2004, 10:14:20 AM by TEPaul »

paul cowley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Total designs?
« Reply #12 on: April 10, 2004, 01:49:58 PM »
tom ,my friend.....sometime when you're in the sofa zone ,try closing your eyes and gently mouth the word BOOK,BOOK,BOOK mantra like........feel the word in your mouth with each breath.....its really a marvelous word.

...i'm sure if you do this long enough something that you are really good at will come to mind.... ;)
« Last Edit: April 10, 2004, 02:08:33 PM by paul cowley »
paul cowley...golf course architect/asgca

Steven_Biehl

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Total designs?
« Reply #13 on: April 10, 2004, 07:23:01 PM »
It is very ironic that you bring this topic up here.  It was just Tuesday that I got to tour a Frank Lloyd Wright house where he had designed everything (furniture, lamps, towels, bed coverings, carpets, rugs, dishes, table clothes, landscaping).  After touring the house, I thought about the possibilities of doing the same thing with a golf course property.  Having a single architect design everything, and incorporate everything into one piece of architecture rather than separate amenities could have spectacular results.
"He who creates a cricket ground is at best a good craftsman but the creator of a great hole is an artist.  We golfers can talk, and sometimes do talk considerable nonsense too, about our favourite holes for hours together." - Bernard Darwin, Golf

Gerry B

Re:Total designs?
« Reply #14 on: April 10, 2004, 08:28:36 PM »
Shinnecock hired famed turn of the century architect Stanford White to design their clubhouse to complement the course? I heard he also did Atlantic City CC - cannot confirm -but looks like his style.

There is  / was a Frank Lloyd Wright designed clubhouse in Maui, Hawaii -at a course that recenly went into receivership Waikapu - The clubhouse was much better than the course.  

Nice reference to Gaudi - a great architect /designer in a great city (Barcelona) - I have a friend who lives in an apartment building he designed -spectacular and innovative would be an understatement. And there are no flat lies anywhere to be found on the floors.

Joel_Stewart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Total designs?
« Reply #15 on: April 10, 2004, 08:49:55 PM »
The first I can think of is Tim Blixseth at Porcupine Creek in Rancho Mirage.   He is the owner, architect, contractor, sole member and approves every player.

The second is Steve Wynn at Shadow Creek.  Although Fazio is the lead architect, Wynn approved every detail, every mound, and every blade of grass.  

Adam_F_Collins

Re:Total designs?
« Reply #16 on: April 10, 2004, 11:07:13 PM »
Steven_Biehl

Very interesting that you had that experience and similar thoughts. You're lucky to have been on such a tour.

Gerry B

I was thinking about Shinnecock's clubhouse - never seen it inside, but I really like that style. There are a lot of clubhouses that just don't integrate.
                                         

paul cowley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Total designs?
« Reply #17 on: April 10, 2004, 11:44:46 PM »
adam....i've enjoyed your posts and thoughtful insights.

and my answer to your question as to whether i am more satisfied with a job when i have total involvement is yes,most definately.
  i have come to this juncture in my career from a not so  typical path....although golf design has always been a passion, from an early age i have always pursued multiple goals ,and worked hard to learn what i needed to know to achieve these.
 i am largely self taught with the world as a classroom.
for what ever reason ,i am first and foremost a designer who looks at most things i see as an opportunity express this.
[i mean when will they start making cereal containers with zip lock tops , or convertible top pick-ups ,spicy ketchup etc. ?they finally just figured out pop lid soup cans,soon to be pop lid everything].
   my early career consisted of nursery work ,plant propagation and growing ,dry stone masonry and related hardscape construction ,greenskeeping,landscaping,framing and building construction....i used my body daily as a tool until past thirty.
   my middle career consists of landscape and building architectural design, site and land planning, resort design ,general contracting and developement and my aforementioned passion ,golf course design.
  these are all areas i am paid for and comfortable working in....
 i don't mean to suggest that i need to pursue all these disciplines simultaneously but to be channelled into less can be frustrating when working with un-allied professionals.
  i prefer the team approach when it works...but i also enjoy a new challenge.
....and least you begin to 'gel' , it sure doesn't hurt to re-invent yourself every 15 years or so........
   
« Last Edit: April 11, 2004, 07:25:18 AM by paul cowley »
paul cowley...golf course architect/asgca

Adam_F_Collins

Re:Total designs?
« Reply #18 on: April 11, 2004, 12:29:07 AM »
Thank you, Paul. It's quite interesting to get an idea of the lives behind these posts.

Designers of whatever field, usually have an idea of what they would change or create if they got the chance. They have an obsessive drive to make the world the way they think it should be.  Each truly believes that he or she is right, and is making the world a better place with their efforts. It seems like a "Total Design" would be a pleasure to create. I know I'd like to try it.

I'm the oldest of three boys - I'm the only one who graduated from High school. I did some landscaping and got into building houses after high school in Vermont. Then found my way to Maine and got a job with a guy who was also into wooden boats - so I learned a bit about that and the perfection of design and functionality needed within the tiny space of a boat. I also spent a lot of times on the islands of Casco Bay - particularly, Cushing's Island, where I discovered the architecture of Calvin Stevens. More subtleties of design and functionality.

Then I decided that at 25, I needed to get a clue. So I went to The Portland School of Art in Maine. Then to the Nova Scotia College of Art and Design in Halifax. I discovered golf as an obsession in my third year - when I had the least money - and the courses where what sucked me in...everyone different...designed, shaped, growing, changing.

Now, at 34, I'm a professional graphic designer - but still just a designer. And man, I'd love to dig a course out of the ground somewhere...

Haha! Who wouldn't?
« Last Edit: June 03, 2004, 05:27:08 PM by Adam_F_Collins »

paul cowley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Total designs?
« Reply #19 on: April 11, 2004, 07:17:26 AM »
adam....then i would pursue multiple goals to build a base.
   it seems the harder you work ,the more 'luck' starts to notice... and he is an important ally ;)
paul cowley...golf course architect/asgca