[David Kelly]

Get rid of anything living on the course that doesn't have shoulders.  Didn't David Kelly step on something bad out there?

Jeff Goldman

Yes I stepped on the tail of a small 2' rattlesnake on the 13th hole (where another rattler was found on Sat.). It turned around and started to think about striking but Dick Daley yelled and I hightailed it out of there.

[Scott_Burroughs]

Tommy,

Of course I was kidding.  By all accounts the "firestarters" here are all of great guys in person - Fortson, Mucci, Kavanaugh - all 'different' than their online personalities.

I was just poking fun at Jeff's admission that even with all of the supposedly honest and well-meaning raters here that he still hates raters and the process in general.  Nothing seemed to change his mindset, and made a snide comment fairly recently, as well, on G. Shack's Golfdom article.

[RJ_Daley]

Well, I understand the reason for adding the "Hell's Half Acre" on the two counts reasoned to be needed.  a. the engineering/drainage need to have a dry waste area for water to the channel through, thus eliminating the sand wash over of the turf in heavy run-off events.  b. to have an added dimension to the strategy of the play off the tee and giving it a 'bottlehole' like effect and adding to the positioning of the layup consideration.

But, after struggling to read these fast moving 4 pages and wanting to understand why folks are suggesting changes/tweaking, I see nothing to convince me change is warranted.  I think it is what it is, and should be allowed to evolve...period.  As we have seen, Ma Nature tried to remodel it with the wash-outs.  Mere restorative/remodel and re-engineering responses to those rare and certain to be other natural occurances is all the tweaking she needs.

I don't see any wisdom of a conversion to any form of private entity, even an extra private course up cyn.  The auspices of the County government and the restrictions they require in the agreement with the developer/operator should be enforced in the spirit of providing a rare and quality golf experience at the most popularly affordable prices possible.  The public that can't afford the private prohibitively priced legendary golf courses, yet those common folk who love their golf, should always have their mecca too.  Always run it with the eye towards preserving something great for any person who relishes greatness.  Those citizen users will naturally be protective enough to see nothing bad comes to their rare opportunity to enjoy what normally wouldn't be available to them.

The only improvement is to try to remain constant and in harmony with what evolves.  Always make sure your superintendent is one who understands what a rarity and public treasure RC is and why it is so, and let him/her use their knowledge to do the best they can to maintain it.

[A_Clay_Man]

Dick- Great post! But to take your argument to it's ultimate and realistic, conclusion, maybe we should come-up with ideas on how to "Screw-up" RC?

I have yet to get there, but I'd say planting trees and more flower beds would do wonders to better atrract, that fickle mass market. Oh yeah, I sure hope they don't forget to raise the fee, substantially.

 

[THuckaby2]

Dick - great post for sure.. and your thoughts on keeping this great place open for the public is exactly the "Catholic guilt" I referred to before.  As fun as it is to contemplate, I just can't fully get behind the idea of taking Rustic away from the SoCal public.  And I'm also with you re suggested architectural changes... I really do think leaving well enough alone, and letting it evolve, is all that is needed here.  Hell's Half Acre on 10 came about from Ma Nature, as apparently water flowed through that side channel when the course flooded... as stuff like that is revealed, hell yes, work it into the course's reality.  And if Hanse/Wagner/Shack feel like tweaking, well then it is their design to tweak and I sure as hell would trust them to do it right.  But beyond that.. well... to me the course is pretty damn other-worldly as it is right now.  The more I play it, the more I believe.

One question I can't figure out though:  why is it that so many astute people find Rustic to be an easy pushover after one playing, then come to see that it's anything but easy upon repeated playings?  That seems to happen all the time - it did to me at least to a little extent (although I never said it was a pushover, it does seem tougher to me now after 4 playings that it did after one!).  Maybe it's like The Old Course, where what can go wrong reveals itself over time, and implants itself in the psyche?  Maybe ignorance is bliss if one wants to score well?

TH

ps - the place still does need some more damn benches!  

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

I loved the course and with a straight face note the obvious by saying what an incredible value this course is to the golfing public in the LA area. I read most of what came before me so I really only wish the super would mow in stripes or one direction. I feel the split fairway mowing hinders ones view of the hole and the options it presents to you. One of the beauties of a course like this is strategic options that one can make from the tee. This is a daily fee course, not a club where one should have a home course advantage. You want your customer to be able to see as many of the options as possible to enjoy what the hole gives you. Gib, it is always a pleasure to golf the ball with you. Victory only enhances the experience.

[RJ_Daley]

While I have never played TOC, I truly believe the notion of it getting better each time you play, and it revealing something new each time is at play at RC.  

For example, By mistake I heeled one over to short in the left fairway approach to #3.  On the previous plays, my eye only really went to the right lay-up and long with the wind going for the gusto of driving the green.  Yet, after trying the left having been forced over there, I found it an appealing place to play from with the deeper green to work with on from that side.

16 was cited above as needing some sort of different line of eye appeal from the tee.  I can't agree.  Playing it and trusting the right slope, or being bold and challenging the left side is great.  I think it would take some experimenting, but getting the approach to bound up, or how to hit it to hold the green without going past to the rear chipping area is something that I think will take great feel and experimenting.  But, I don't doubt there is a way I couldn't discover on these few couple of rounds.  I would love to play that hole over and over.  And, I could loose weight climbing to the tee each time

The subtle noses and knobs of the pre-green fairways throughout the course would take quite some time to learn, particularly in various weather-wind-turf conditions.

[THuckaby2]

I too believe RC is definitely among those types of courses that get learned more and more over time, and perhaps NEVER really all their mysteries.  Good call re 16, Dick.  One could certainly play shot after shot after shot into there trying to figure the best way.

But what I'm asking more is why does it get HARDER the more one plays it?  If anything logically it should be the opposite - the more you learn, the more you know, the better you score.  But it sure hasn't worked out that way for me, or many others I've talked to... we're talking repeat visitors here, not so much the locals....

Does it work that way for the locals?  Do you find the course harder or easier now after many playings?  Is there a learning curve one goes through, like at the Old Course (once described incredibly well on here by Darren Kilfara)?

It's just very intriguing to me how this exact thought pattern has happened to so many respectable people.... first round -  cool course, but pushover.  2nd/3rd rounds - wow, there's way more to this... 4th/5th rounds:  jeez this is freakin' hard, but damn fun, what was I thinking before???

TH

[Pete Lavallee]

JB;

I believe the half fairway mowing is part of the Super's plan to vary the mowing pattern. When I was there 3 weeks ago checkerboard was in effect. Apparently the rye shouldn't be mowed the same each day like bermuda could be.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Rustic Canyon is a unique PUBLIC golf course, and while I am partial, it isn't because of the lack of architecture or mis-use of it, more about the controversial nature of it, and for me thats the make-up of GREAT golf architecture--golf holes that incite talk and thought, and even weigh-on you over a period of time.  This isn't just like stepping out on to another golf course that was designed to be turn key, and because of its natural canyon flavor, its going to be ever-changing.

Many bring up some interesting points, most that will never see the light of day, but I can say this with all due honesty--this whole thread is a perfect example of how everyone perceives golf course architecture differently, but it also has shown me just how difficult it is for ALL golf architects and designers to please every Golfer in this regard. Its just some like to practice different principles and in the scheme of things this is why we like commenting or like frank discussion concerning them.  

Rustic Canyon is a golf course that is based-off of the Golden Age principles of Golf as it was in Southern California in early 1920's to the early 1930's, and its inspired by the writings and ramblings of George Thomas, Max Behr, Dr. Alister MacKenzie, Robert Hunter and even the photographic talent of Scotty Chisolm; who in turn were all inspired by The Old Course of St. Andrews.

Simply put, Rustic Canyon, embellishes its natural environment and thats the key ingredient of the great links of Great Britain.

I can name about thirty other modern courses I have seen or have only seen in pictures that do this, and while some of you will no doubt mock my intesity for the subject, I can assure you from all I know of the subject of Golf Architecture, seeing these types of courses is pretty exciting. For me the natural-thing is what produces the GREAT golf shots required to play a certain golf course, not golf shots manufactured to make a GREAT golf course. Its the job of GREAT Golf Architects to find these feautres in the ground and expose them, refine them, ever-so-slighty nudge them into even better and more exciting golf experiences, and for me there are very few that know how to do this.

[peter_p]

Stuck in the golf cart with a balky back, the left side option on #3 never materialized. The small mound short right meant a layup to avoid it in the strong wind.

I think they're going to have more problems with the bridges. The wash will continually change contours, and making fixed supports in that enviroment is chancy. Maybe portable bridges that can be moved or removed.

What about a fairway bunker on the left side of one and two
to help pick aiming points. Its fairly featureless and you unconsciously want to steer away from right side.  

[David Kelly]

I would clear out a lot of the junk on the left side of the 15th green.  A golfer that misses the green by a few feet left is often overly punished with a lost ball or unplayable lie.

[RJ_Daley]

David, that is the fairest assesment for a change, while not really doing more than maintenance that I've read so far, IMO.  Get the brush knocked down for about 15 yards more to the left and get some native growing there, where one can at least find and advance a shot.  Good call.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

I think they're going to have more problems with the bridges. The wash will continually change contours, and making fixed supports in that enviroment is chancy. Maybe portable bridges that can be moved or removed.

Portable Bridges that can be moved or removed? ? ? ?  Why not just put in dark rusty suspension bridges to pretty up the canyon and way above the flows of the water that comes through there once ever 10-20 years or so! Peter, please!

What about a fairway bunker on the left side of one and two
to help pick aiming points. Its fairly featureless and you unconsciously want to steer away from right side.  

BINGO! You just answered your own question! Or would you rather just be able to go out there and drop a ball where you wanted it to be everytime?

I would clear out a lot of the junk on the left side of the 15th green.  A golfer that misses the green by a few feet left is often overly punished with a lost ball or unplayable lie.

Well, yes, but if you count the yards of distance you have gained with that "driver" of yours on other holes, then a little penal nature should be O.K. don't you think!  

[THuckaby2]

I'm with Tommy re 15.  Seems to me that it's a pretty short shot (in non-gale conditions, anyway) so some penalty seems fine with me also.  There's also plenty of room to bail short and right... What I'd do with that is just clearly mark the line left of the bunker as hazard.  You really don't want people tromping around in that brush anyway, even if it is cut back.  Maybe also add a drop area short of the bunker on the left.

TH

ps to David K. - your legend is growing re exploits at MPCC-Dunes... you reach god status if you managed to actually take money from Mr. Huntley, the king of winning bets on the first tee (and backing such up with stellar play)...  

[Brian Noser]

I believe that the shot options is what makes it difficult for me. the first time you may only see one or to shot options the next time three. there are so many options that it takes a while to try to figure out which one is best.
I still have not tried to go left on 3 but next time I play I may give it a shot. There are certain shots that do stand out on what to do but some still leave me scratching my head.

 3 is the only hole I really have questions about. I think another tee about 15 to 20 yards back would help with the wind in the winter. the carry over the middle bunkers need to be a little more to make it more of a risk to go over it. I believe it is like 245 from the black and 220 from the blue. just my 2 cents

[David Kelly]

ps to David K. - your legend is growing re exploits at MPCC-Dunes... you reach god status if you managed to actually take money from Mr. Huntley, the king of winning bets on the first tee (and backing such up with stellar play)...  

No I was paying Mr. Huntley at the end of the round.  An ill-advised call of "Pig" on our 16th hole during our "Wolf" game squandered what would have been my winnings and set me back for the day.

[Brian_Gracely]

ps to David K. - your legend is growing re exploits at MPCC-Dunes... you reach god status if you managed to actually take money from Mr. Huntley, the king of winning bets on the first tee (and backing such up with stellar play)...  

No I was paying Mr. Huntley at the end of the round.  An ill-advised call of "Pig" on our 16th hole during our "Wolf" game squandered what would have been my winnings and set me back for the day.

Mr.Huntley completely talked him into that after I hit my ball into the left-hand bunker on #12 at MPCC.  You should have seen the rye grin on his face.  It was definitiely worthy of a "what a shame" and a "what a pity" from our esteemed friend in Monterey    But in David's defense, I think it was the only hole that he didn't hit the ball dead straight.

[ForkaB]

You should have seen the rye grin on his face.

Brian

Knowing Mr. Huntley a bit, I would think that it was a "gin grin" on his face, or even more likely a "Cotes de Ventoux moue."  Methinks that sightings of Sir Bob drinking rye are few and far between, and I am sure that none of them occurred on the golf course, particularly when a game of "Wolf" was in progress.......

[THuckaby2]

 

I firmly believe that one of the golf experiences every player must have before his days are done is to be on the receiving end of a "what a pity" from Mr. Huntley - or at least get the look that David received.  Oh it has happened to me more times than I care to remember, for my wallet... but I do remember each one, for how great each was.

David K. - good man for calling "pig" anyway - that takes guts.  Heck, makes for a great story win or lose also.

TH

[Mike Benham]

Bump ...

[rjsimper]

Drop the driving range to get that fence out of there.

Oh wait, this has been mentioned before?  

[Brian Noser]

OH NO NOT AGAIN!!!!

[David Ober]

I would clear out a lot of the junk on the left side of the 15th green.  A golfer that misses the green by a few feet left is often overly punished with a lost ball or unplayable lie.

I wouldn't touch 15. It's only an 8, 9, or PW for most players even from the back tee, so a severe penalty for a miss with such clubs is reasonable, IMHO.

[Matthew Mollica]

Unearthed this thread today, and it contains some great stuff.

Has there been much thought to removing the two trees on 14?
Unless protected, they seem superfluous.

Matthew

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