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THuckaby2

Re:How would you improve Rustic?
« Reply #25 on: March 30, 2004, 10:29:22 AM »
Don't you guys think it's just a bit bold of you to suggest changes to improve what is already supposed to be a great course?

TD - that thought had occurred to me big time!  But what the hell, this has to be all in fun.  No way architects take anything we say here seriously, right?   ;D

corey miller

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:How would you improve Rustic?
« Reply #26 on: March 30, 2004, 10:43:49 AM »


It would seem to me that any back-ups and waits at Rustic Canyon are caused by the slow play of people on the course and have nothing to do with the routing.  4:30 on that course is very slow.  

This is a new one on me, but when I played Rustic, I was told there was no drinking water for liability reasons.

THuckaby2

Re:How would you improve Rustic?
« Reply #27 on: March 30, 2004, 10:47:57 AM »
Corey - I'm not even gonna imagine why drinking fountains would cause liability issues, other than to say that neither surprises me nor changes my view that armageddon is near.   ;)

As for pace of play, yeah, I don't think it's a routing issue either, though those backups did seem to occur.  People just do go slow, and given the constantly packed course, well... 4:30 seems about right to me, 5+ hours in the gale wind like we had Sunday am.  Go first group off, no one in the way, and 3:30 can be done, as I gather David M.'s group usually does.  There are some long walks on the back nine, but nothing too bad.  Heck, take a cart that doesn't have to stay on the path and I can see playing it in two hours or less!

TH

Pete Lavallee

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:How would you improve Rustic?
« Reply #28 on: March 30, 2004, 10:55:20 AM »
There are water coolers on the 3rd, 9th, 11th and 14th tees. They have always been full of ice cold water each time I've played there. There is definetly a need for more benches!
"...one inoculated with the virus must swing a golf-club or perish."  Robert Hunter

Mike Benham

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:How would you improve Rustic?
« Reply #29 on: March 30, 2004, 10:57:43 AM »
Don't you guys think it's just a bit bold of you to suggest changes to improve what is already supposed to be a great course?

Isn't this how committees screw up great courses and cause the need for restoration?

Tom -

I'm not sure that these are bold critiques of the course especially after we spent all weekend with people near and dear to the course talking about these same things.  As an example, I suspect that the enlarging of the 8th green came as a result of the regulars, superintendent and DoG reviewing the daily course of play and the need for more pinnable hole locations.

I don't think Rustic's situation is comparable to a greens committee influence at a private club.  From what I heard, there is an owner trying to make money (or "more" money was one person described it ...) and you have a group of passionate people (Tommy, David, Geoff, Jeffet al) who want to see the course maintained the way it was designed while making positive changes as they become evident.  These 2 clash and the Golden rule wins (He who has the gold, makes the rules).

Someone mentioned to me that Geoff was in favor of extending the left fairway farther up canyon ...

Mike

Ps:  At least no one has suggested that they build homes on the ridges to give the same look and feel of Riveria ... now that would be bold !!!
"... and I liked the guy ..."

THuckaby2

Re:How would you improve Rustic?
« Reply #30 on: March 30, 2004, 10:58:46 AM »
Pete - thanks.  I thought I remembered SOME existing.  It was just so darn hot and such a long round on Sunday am, I wasn't sure if those were mirages.   ;)

BTW, the course to me was DAMN fun to play in that high wind... jeez it made for some incredibly fun shots.  14 became a very different puzzle with that kind of wind, huh?
 13 playing driver/3wood/3wood was pretty cool... it goes on and on.

TH

Gib_Papazian

Re:How would you improve Rustic?
« Reply #31 on: March 30, 2004, 11:17:42 AM »
Tom,

Don't you think your post is a bit disingenuous coming from the author of the Confidential Guide?   ???

As I stated above, there is nothing wrong with a tweak here and there, especially if the surgeon is the creator.

We are not suggesting sending in Rees Jones to remodel the course, only that there are a few niggling flaws that nearly EVERYONE WHO HAS PLAYED THE COURSE seems to agree upon.

You are one of the harshest architecture critics in the game - as is one of the creators of Rustic Canyon.

I deeply respect both of your opinions and read or listen intently when either of you have something to say.

However, your post is a bit insulting. To compare the Treehouse to a run-of-the-mill Green Committee is sheer nonsense.

My initial question was not a query for some open-ended visceral drivel about Rustic, it was intended as an exercise in identifying how a young golf course might be improved by its creators.

Not by a Green Committee.

Not by an outside architect.

BY THE AUTHORS OF THE BOOK ENTITLED RUSTIC CANYON.

"The difference between good and great is often getting the last 10% EXACTLY right."

-Art Dunkley.    

   

Jonathan Cummings

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:How would you improve Rustic?
« Reply #32 on: March 30, 2004, 11:18:54 AM »
Tom my boy, in our group putting became damn near impossible.  We played with a putt on one hole where we hit it above the hole and watched as the wind blew it back some 20 feet.  It never would have move without the high wind.
The greens were simply too quick for those kind of winds.  Similar winds on British Isle courses work because the greens are slower.  J

THuckaby2

Re:How would you improve Rustic?
« Reply #33 on: March 30, 2004, 11:24:52 AM »
Tom my boy, in our group putting became damn near impossible.  We played with a putt on one hole where we hit it above the hole and watched as the wind blew it back some 20 feet.  It never would have move without the high wind.
The greens were simply too quick for those kind of winds.  Similar winds on British Isle courses work because the greens are slower.  J

JC - I never saw the wind blow the ball around the greens that morning... yes, if that happens it does reach the point of absurdity.  But of course in wind that high, one just doesn't play!  But didn't someone say last week that conditions can get too firm and too fast?  Perhaps this was an instance of such.   ;)

Seriously, I thought the conditions we faced Sun. am did push things right to the edge, but not over - because nowhere did I see balls at rest getting blown around.  I guess the closest instance was #11, where a ball could be played past the hole and have it come back... but a putt left by the hole did stay there, so absurdity was never reached.  Anyway, in that type of match-play situation, it was really fun.  Comical in terms of scoring, but fun nevertheless.


JakaB

Re:How would you improve Rustic?
« Reply #34 on: March 30, 2004, 11:44:01 AM »
In emergency session the BBGE has voted to donate $50 towards the purchase of a bench or benches for Rustic Canyon.  Benches promote walking and fit the model of what we consider to be what is good for golf.  Once permission has been obtained and placement procurred we would be interested in placing a bench in the honor of our own Tommy Nac....a throne per say to be used by all those who love the game in a manner such as he...

Tommy_Naccarato

Re:How would you improve Rustic?
« Reply #35 on: March 30, 2004, 11:48:15 AM »
John,
I don't know what has happened to them, but we had benches for every hole and now most of them if not all of them are gone.  I'll ask Jeff Hicks whats happened to them.

As far as one in my honor shaped as throne, well there's always the outhouse!
« Last Edit: March 30, 2004, 11:49:12 AM by Tommy_Naccarato »

DMoriarty

Re:How would you improve Rustic?
« Reply #36 on: March 30, 2004, 12:04:36 PM »
There are water coolers on 3, 7, 9, 11, 14, and 17.

There were benches on every hole, but most shattered as they were blowing down the fairways in the winter wind.  

Speaking out outhouses, it blew over so many times that there was definitely another reason to avoid standing directly down wind . . . .

JakaB

Re:How would you improve Rustic?
« Reply #37 on: March 30, 2004, 12:16:01 PM »
Water coolers are very dangerous from a cross contamination stand point...I just don't know how a course with 80,000 rounds could afford to provide bottled water in coolers for everyone...and dehydration is not pretty.   Is there any chance the management of Rustic has isolated the filling of coolers away from the superintendant staff...I doubt it.

THuckaby2

Re:How would you improve Rustic?
« Reply #38 on: March 30, 2004, 12:20:56 PM »
I guess that's enough water coolers and hell, this was just a throway point from a surly tired guy anyway.

But that is weird re the benches... maybe between me and Barney we can buy some heavier ones for the place?   ;)

TH

Gib_Papazian

Re:How would you improve Rustic?
« Reply #39 on: March 30, 2004, 12:27:26 PM »
Barnyf, JakaB . . . . or whatever incarnation of your multiple angst riddled  ;D personalities you are channeling today:

#1. Your presence was missed at KP III.

#2. There is a attractive beer wench with a cart full of bottled agua and a selection of adult beverages.

I cannot understand how benches and potential cross-contamination in water jugs even registers on the radar screen.

THuckaby2

Re:How would you improve Rustic?
« Reply #40 on: March 30, 2004, 12:57:20 PM »
I cannot understand how benches and potential cross-contamination in water jugs even registers on the radar screen.

Gib:

You asked how one would improve Rustic.  Those are concrete things that could very easily be done, and would make for happier golfers.  How can they NOT register on the radar screen?

To me these are quite more real than the architectural changes you and others here have suggested, which would please a lot of people, but others might never "get" anyway.

Rustic is a FANTASTIC golf course.  Could it use some architectural tweaks?  Hell if I know... that's for Messrs. Hanse, Wager & Shackeford to puzzle through and I for one do not have the temerity to tell them how to do their job.

But I do know I was FREAKING TIRED playing that course and a place to sit would have been nice.  And re the water, well, I guess I didn't look hard enough.  But anyway the point is that those are the ONLY concrete "improvements" I see that are needed.  And the fact that they are so trivial - which they are - just goes to show what an incredible gem of a golf course they have down there in Moorpark.

Nothing ever has made me want to move back to SoCal... until now.   ;)

sonofalawyer

Re:How would you improve Rustic?
« Reply #41 on: March 30, 2004, 12:59:26 PM »
pace of play is certainly an issue at rustic.  i most often play a noonish weekend round and seldom do i finish in fewer than 5 hours.  the biggest back up is on the front nine.  for some reason number 6 tee is where the snaffoo exists.  i have seen 4 groups waiting there.

it is a little bit unnerving to watch a foursome wait for the green to clear and than beat a sleeve of balls into the hazard.  there is no shame in playing the white tees.  if you seldom break 90, don't play from the back.  

it's a shame that one can't get around a golf course in under 5 hours, let alone 4, but i think rustic's unique challenges only exacerbate the epidemic of slow play in american golf, but it's not the fault of the course that play is slow.

rustic is extremely popular and with great reason.  it is a wonderful course, that is a thrill to play for all skill levels.  it is also 50 bucks -- i don't know if the out of towners caught this but the weekday twilight rate is 20 bucks.  that course for 20 dollars!  my jaw drops and i want to blow off work just thinking about it.

ForkaB

Re:How would you improve Rustic?
« Reply #42 on: March 30, 2004, 01:36:04 PM »
Move it over to the UK, where it would be appreciated and not nit-picked to death....... ;)

Gib_Papazian

Re:How would you improve Rustic?
« Reply #43 on: March 30, 2004, 01:39:30 PM »
Huckster,

Okay, how about if we pool resources for KPIV and buy the benches in exchange for green fees?

And as a rater, part of your job is to evaluate the strong and weak points of a layout and assign a number to individual categories.

It follows - logically - that anybody with the "temerity" to rate a golf course (and I believe you are also still with the NCGA?) ought not be shy about pointing out its strong and weak points.

Enough of your "aw shucks, what do I know?" bullshit. You notice EVERYTHING but just don't want to admit it.   ;)

THuckaby2

Re:How would you improve Rustic?
« Reply #44 on: March 30, 2004, 01:41:19 PM »
Move it over to the UK, where it would be appreciated and not nit-picked to death....... ;)

Hell of a good point.  And it would be appreciated over there...and also would fit right in.  I swear to God the closest thing we have to Dornoch here on the west coast anyway is Rustic Canyon.

Wanna hear another completely selfish, maybe idiotic thought?

It would make one hell of a private club.  Buy all the land going back into the canyon, build 18 more holes there, create a "Gil's Porch" in between the two 18's, say behind the current #13, up on the ridge a bit... ok, I'll stop now.  Dare to dream though....

ForkaB

Re:How would you improve Rustic?
« Reply #45 on: March 30, 2004, 01:43:53 PM »
I'll join.  Just make it "Gib's Porch" and don't forget to add the neat little 9-holer for the local kids......

Gib_Papazian

Re:How would you improve Rustic?
« Reply #46 on: March 30, 2004, 01:46:46 PM »
Rich,
I might refer you to your column on the Old Links at Strathwhinn (July 1, 2002), your impossibly clever retort to my column on Redan Hills:

"All holes will be subject to renovation, restoration, complete rebuilding, or even demolition."


Gib_Papazian

Re:How would you improve Rustic?
« Reply #47 on: March 30, 2004, 01:50:04 PM »
Huckster,

Okay, take it private, but under the condition we do it Goodale's way. Here is the column as printed:

PLEASE FORWARD TO ANG SPORTS. THIS IS A GOLF COLUMN FOR THE TUESDAY SAN MATEO TIMES.
By Gib Papazian

     Several weeks ago, we conjured up mythical Redan Hills Golf Club from the best ideas over a lifetime of experiences. Apparently, the idea of starting a club is a fantasy shared by many of our readers. We are still receiving responses and suggestions about a column that has somehow taken on a life of its own.        
     Richard Goodale, a longtime reader and friend, sent us a retort so impossibly clever I feel compelled to print it for your enjoyment. Evidently, he took exception to the private and insular nature of Redan Hills in favor of a far more egalitarian set-up.
     Goodale will be returning to Scotland next month with his family to raise kids - and hopefully to organize a club based on his unique vision. Here is an edited version of his letter to the Times:          

Dear Gib,
One of the finest and most fascinating things about golf is that golfing friends of similar experience can envision their "ideal" club almost 180 degrees apart! And yet, I'm very sure I would enjoy Redan Hills as much as you would enjoy the Old Links at Strathwhinn. So much for the pleasantries………….

Strathwhinn, being a links, has no "hills" to speak of, just an infinite  series of randomly dispersed mounds and hollows. It does not have a "Redan" hole and anybody who even suggests that it ought to is immediately put on "double-secret" probation.

It is, of course in the Kingdom of Fife.  As Hillaire Belloc once said about wine: "The first duty of a wine is to be red. The second is that it be a Burgundy."
On the same note, I say: The first duty of a golf course is to be a “links.” The second is that it be in Scotland.
In terms of the club, mine would have the following"characteristics:"

</button> Strathwhinn will be very much a public course. Various categories of "membership" are available (daily, weekly, fortnightly, seasonal, yearly, senior, junior, local, walk-ons, etc.) but all are subject to non-renewal at the end of any term. No other privileges for any class of member.

</button> All "members" will be subject to the sanction of "time out." Just as in kindergarten, this will be for misbehavior and entail a loss of all club privileges for a period of time.

</button> Strathwhinn will not employ a double-barrel named, anal retentive, retired British military officer to run the place. Some cheerful middle aged woman named Maggie will do just fine, assisted by a few lassies and laddies to help out during the busy months.

</button> We will have the same old pro year after year (he summers at my club and winters at Redan Hills), but he has no official duties except to occasionally sell sweaters, golf balls and faux club ties. He must have a questionable history, be a raconteur and not averse to a drammie or two.

</button> There will be assistant pro's, but rather than being well paid as at Redan Hills, they (or their sponsors, college, parents, etc.) will pay Strathwhinn for the privilege of a 2-year "residency." It will be one of the most sought-after posts for an ambitious young golf professional.
 
</button> The Greenkeeper will be highly competent, but not draw a lucrative salary. If he or she wishes to leave, the existence of Strathwhinn on the resume will guarantee a highly paid job at places like Redan Hills or Wentworth.
</button> He or she will have a large and cheerful staff, taken mostly from the local population. They will all be enthusiastic, with a thorough understanding of how to maintain a course with playability in mind.

</button> There will be a tennis club down the street and a local cricket club. A Strathwhinn "membership" will come with fishing privileges at a wee loch up in the hills.

</button> Unlike Redan Hills, there will be no "Dormy House" at the club. Players will be encouraged to frequent local establishments for accommodation, meals and non-golf oriented camaraderie.

</button> Much of this will be found at the club as well, of course. Strathwhinn will have a simple menu and legendary craic.

</button> We will not, however, have any wines priced at more that $10 retail. In fact, if a player wishes to drink any sort of wine in the clubhouse, it will be made difficult for him or her to find one of their liking.

</button> Beer and spirits will reign. The scotch of choice will be the "Strathwhinn Highland Malt" bottled for the club, and sold at a reasonable price.

</button> The course will have been a piece of scruffy land that the great-nephew of the owner claims used to be a golf course. It will be bought at an estate sale.
 
</button> The founders will hold a design competition which will consist of sending a disguised topographic map to every golf course architect we have ever heard of, asking them to send us back a routing.

</button> We will keep their ideas and tell all of them they lost the job. From their drawings, we will assemble a routing and hire the best unemployed golf hole shaper available to live in the village, hire and train some assistants and do his stuff.

</button> The designer of the course will always be listed as "The Singularity."

</button> I, Richard Goodale, will be in charge. There will be 20 or so founders who kick in a few grand, participate in the design of the course, and have playing privileges for the first year. After a while I might allow a "committee" of sorts, but they would have no power except that of possible persuasion.

</button> All holes will be subject to renovation, restoration, complete rebuilding, or even demolition. The course will be reversible and in common with St. Andrews, several tournaments will be played each year"back to front."

</button> All this is contingent upon me winning the lottery. Hope to see you soon in Scotland.

Cheers,
Rich Goodale
 
« Last Edit: March 30, 2004, 01:51:34 PM by Gib_Papazian »

THuckaby2

Re:How would you improve Rustic?
« Reply #48 on: March 30, 2004, 01:57:06 PM »
Rich:

Whaddya say whoever makes this happen gets naming rights to the porch?  Huck's Haven sounds kinda good to me.   ;)  And great idea about 9 holes for the kids.

Gib:

I do notice things, and I noticed it needed more freakin' benches.   ;D  And you well know that it doesn't take a huge amount of assessment of strong and weak points to complete the form we are required to complete.  Mine's already done re Rustic anyway - did it last year.   Beyond that, I just let the professionals like yourself do their jobs!  

TH

THuckaby2

Re:How would you improve Rustic?
« Reply #49 on: March 30, 2004, 02:00:50 PM »
Gib:

I remember when all this first came out.

Goodale's way sounds absolutely fabulous to me.   Did then, does now.  Obviously he can't be in charge of this here unless he moves back, as this ain't gonna be in Scotland.  So I'll be happy with YOU taking his place as dictator, and the club remains right where it is now.  Deal?

But....how do we take this away from the good public golfers of SoCal who so dearly need this course?

God I hate Catholic guilt.

TH

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