[Patrick_Mucci]

Are bunkers at the rear of greens the stepchild of bunkers ?

Are they often inserted for visibility rather then playability ?

Do they have the same time and thought devoted to their creation as fronting or flanking bunkers ?

What are some examples of great rear bunkers ?

What are some examples of terrible rear bunkers ?

[Bill Gayne]

The bunkers behind thirteen at ANGC immediately come to mind.

[Mike_Sweeney]

Monterey Peninsula - Dunes 6th hole 420 yards, the back bunker is Raynorish 8 feet deep and is blind, which was restored by Rees Jones. After I hit my second, I asked my host, "What is back there?"

The answer, "Well Michael, you probably don't want to be back there."

[JSlonis]

Funny you should bring this up...earlier today I saw and discussed with the esteemed TEPaul, a great looking bunker behind the long par 3 17th at Gulph Mills.  

One of the best rear bunkers that I can think of is on the 8th hole at Garden City GC.

Another one that came to mind is a Flynn bunker on the 14th hole at Huntingdon Valley CC.  The 14th is a very long par 4, and at the rear of the green sits a great visual bunker.  It is flat bottomed with a very steep flashed rear portion.  It's almost like a backstop effect, and both from a playability standpoint & visually, it works quite well.  You can see the bunker toward the right rear of the green in the photo below.

[JDoyle]

The toughest rear bunker I can recall is the cellar behind the 3rd green at Fishers Island.  The 3rd provides a beautiful skyline green which is elevated sharply from the fairway.  Anything short will roll off and anything too strong is in golf pergatory.

The photo below is of a GCA lurker who is in the left bunker.  I do not have a photo of the rear bunker, however, I can give personal testimony that it is deeper and steeper!!

[A_Clay_Man]

Pat, Here's some of my fav's, The back bunkers on Pebbles 17th.



Univ. of New Mexico South course has a very strong par 3 (235ish?) that has a back bunker that is invisible. It runs diagonally from lower right to higher left. When I saw it for the first time, I could'nt help but think about the ninth green at Cypress.

[wsmorrison]

Jamie,
That is not a Flynn bunker, nor is it a Flynn green on the 14th hole at Huntingdon Valley.  Donald Ross came in Oct. 1946, after Flynn's death, and submitted numerous changes to Huntingdon Valley.  This is one of the few changes that were accepted.  Flynn's green site was to the right of this green about 40 yards or so near the creek.  The reason for doing this was to allow for a back tee that lengthened 15.  The back bunker on this hole was, I believe, built by the superintendent at the time.  I don't think it is very Flynn-like although the green certainly is with multiple bunkers in the hillside on one flank and a single bunker green level on the other flank.  When Flynn had a back bunker (original back bunker on 1 and 5 at Merion East) they were flat-bottomed but not flashed so high as it is in the overly-manufactured mound at the rear part of the HVCC bunker.  Ian Andrew doctored a photo of this green taking the bunker out.  I'd be curious to know what you think, I liked the look.  I wish I could post the picture--my computer limitations are evident.  Perhaps Ian will see this and post it.  Or, I can email you the picture if you'd like.
Regards,
Wayne

[JSlonis]

Wayne,

Thanks for the info.  I would have never guessed that the present 14th green is not an original.  It was really tied in well to the rest of the golf course.  I don't know what it is, but I've always liked that back bunker.  I've never seen it really come into play, but there is just something about that catches my eye.

I'd like to see that picture without the bunker.  If Ian could post it, great...if not, my email address is in my profile.

Jamie

[SPDB]

Pat - your early, your annual rear bunkers thread is not due for another month.  

[wsmorrison]

Jamie,
I sent you an email with the altered photo attached.  Please post it if you like.  
Regards,
Wayne

[JSlonis]

Wayne,

Through the marvels of technology...here is the 14th at HVCC without the bunker in question.  Even though I like that bunker, I must say it does look fine without it.

Before


After

[Patrick_Mucci]

SPDB,

Pat - your early, your annual rear bunkers thread is not due for another month.  

That's true, I'm early.

This was made necessary by the lack of posts initiated by others who view and
make comments on the posts initiated by others, rather then starting their own posts.

In reviewing the last ten pages of threads I noticed that there were no threads initiated by you, hence, I thought it best to come out early.  

[michael j fay]

I think that the rear bunker is more a product of modern rather than Classic Architecture. It is not true that Ross designed his courses without rear bunkers, but you could play a lot of Ross courses and view a good number of his oilcloths and not find any. They do pop up occasionally but very infrequently

I have long held the theory that Mr. Ross intended his holes to end at the back of the green. Most of the time when you are long on a Ross hole the party is over. The areas that are beyond the greens on Ross courses are usually rather unkempt. I do not remember any chipping areas or other such nonsense on any Ross drawings. Over the years back bunkers have been added to a number of Ross courses. Almost to the very last one, they are trainwrecks. Many architects install them and then have to flash the back of the bunker to allow for sight from the fairway. This most often will produce a downhill lie for the player into a fairly severe downhill green. These bunkers really don't work from a playability point of view but are probably easier than hacking the ball out of four inches of rough from an uphill lie to a green going away.

I have seen many back bunkers and must agree that the one behind the third green at Fishers' is the most draconian.

[Mark_Fine]

The rear bunker on #2 at Prairie Dunes has always been one of my favorites.  

Ross didn't do many that I can recall or am aware of but every architect has exceptions to their "normal" tendencies.  

And that one on #14 at HV is surely not Flynn.  I doubt that it is Ross either frankly.   I think someone else had something to do with that bunker (at least the look of it).  Interesting that it still remains.  Wayne, you and I talked about this one a while ago.  I have that nicely doctored photo though I thought Craig did it.   Nice job Ian!
Mark

[Scott_Burroughs]

My home course, built during the "Dark Ages" of architecture(1968), has rear bunkers on 7 holes (8 total bunkers).  As a member for 9 years, I've been in all except maybe 1 or 2, that I can remember.   The one behind #9 is one I'm not sure I've ever been in, and it would be the toughest, with a rear pin position.  Downhill-sloped bunker to green sloping away.

There's also one hole with a pond behind the green (and on the sides, partly), but not in front.  It wasn't part of the original design.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Michael Fay,

I don't know that I'd agree with the modern theory you propose, although I would tend to agree with respect to flashed rear bunkers.  GCGC has rear bunkers on 11 holes and NGLA has them on about 13 holes.  Few, if any are flashed.

Mark Fine,

The rear bunker at # 2 at Prairie Dunes cost me dearly in the US Mid-Am, but, it served its function well.

[wsmorrison]

Jamie and Mark,

The mounding of the back bunker on 14 HVCC is so unnatural in appearance that I feel it does not belong.  I'll ask Linc Roden or Scott Anderson who put it in (although I'm sure Tom Paul knows).  As I said in an above post, I think it was done by a superintendent, maybe the one that built up some of the left sides of the 2nd and 3rd greens that are frankly awful.

Pat,

What about a hazard that goes beyond rear bunkers, that is island greens surrounded by sand.  This seems to be a truly forgotten feature (maybe replaced by a concept such as 17 at TPC, Sawgrass where it really is an island green surrounded by water) although there are some wonderful examples such as #3 at Pine Valley and #3 at Kittansett.  William Flynn designed numerous examples of greens surrounded by sand, both single and multiple shot holes, often using undulating sandy waste areas such as Pine Valley (at least they were) and sometimes discrete bunkers surrounding a green such as 15 at the amazing Indian Creek.  I'll compile a list of island greens that Flynn designed as I am looking at his design tendencies in a quantitative sense anyway.  Some were not built, there were 9-10 holes planned for Denver CC that were not implemented including 2 fascinating island greens (a par 3 and a par 4).  A real shame since these were outstanding designs.

[BCrosby]

Michael -

One of my favorite rear bunkers is the one behind the 17th at Seminole. Is that Ross?

I agree, Ross didn't seem to design many. But did anyone?

Ross's drawings for Athens CC show a very large bunker wrapping around the rear and right side of the 2nd green. The bunker is gone now, but it would have been below the green level and invisible from the approach area. I would love to see it restored.

Bob

[TEPaul]

Good thread Pat!

The back bunker on HVGC's #14 was put in by the inimitable, long time HVGC professional Joe Kirkwood. Kirkwood was apparently one of the real characters of American golf's middle era--a great player and perhaps one of golf history's truly phenomenal playing trick shot artists! I believe Joe Kirkwood was Australian.

Kirkwood's back bunker on #14 surely is something to see as it's so eyecatching. It also pretty much completely violates what is generally thought to be the proper way to place into existing terrain and create a bunker naturally as it just POPS right out of the ground about as artificially as imaginable.

I'm not sure how HVGC and particularly the original modern day restoration purist, Linc Roden, views that bunker. Linc apparently would like to see HVGC restored to Flynn in every detail but perhaps since #14 green is not a Flynn original it doesn't matter much to him, or to the club.

Kirkwood was also the man who taught Linc to play golf--and was his great mentor--Linc basically wrote a book about Joe Kirkwood.

I do know, though, that it apparently bothers Linc what Kirkwood did to the left and rear of #2 green by scalloping it. I think Linc would like to see that portion of #2 green returned to the way Flynn had it although apparently it might be a bit intense for the membership if that was done.

[john_stiles]

The original Ross sketches for Seminole show about 6 holes with bunkers positioned in the rear.  These sketches are finished sketches with his notes typed on the drawing margins as opposed to an early sketch with his cursive notes.

Having never played there..... and not knowing how well the Ross sketches reflect as built conditions in 1929ish.....the sketches show rear bunkers.

The holes were #5, #8, #12, #13, #15, and finally #17.

A note for the rear bunker at hole #8 says  "Bunker in face of a flat knoll forming background to green".

[A_Clay_Man]

I think that the rear bunker is more a product of modern rather than Classic Architecture.

mjf- Thinking about Pebble Beach, there are many great rear invisible bunkers. To name a few, Holes: 4, 7, 8, 11, 12, 15, 17 and 18.

Here's 15;


I think I remember reading on here that the one, back left on 18, was added by JN around the time of construction of the new 5th. But, I have no facts. As for the others, I suppose they could've all been added after 1919, but something tells me there are too many, not to make them original intent. Hopefully someone can educate us both on when the "forgotten bunker" was dominant. I'd speculate it has a lot to do with TOC, in reverse. ??

[TEPaul]

michael j.fay;

Ross's rear bunkers at GMGC actually weren't infrequent at all. It's sort of curious where they appear (or appeared) on the course. He didn't use one until the 8th green (a green that's gone now replaced by a great Maxwell green down the hill and about 80 yards short of Ross's old green).

But then on the back nine he used rear bunkers in one form or another, generally really large ones, on almost every hole. In my opinion, they all had some intended function or another generally serving as "catch" or "safety" bunkers to prevent balls from running OB on one hole, or into tees directly behind two greens or up into the clubhouse on #18.

These bunkers generally covered the entire backs of some fairly large greens. Gil Hanse just restored five of these back bunkers that were obsoleted decades ago. The most interesting of them was on #13 that covered the back of a really good Ross "kick-up" that has also been restored to green-space after having been obsoleted decades ago.

The "kick-up", as you know, was a raised greenspace upslope in the rear of generally very long par 4s or par 5s to allow hot running balls to slow down, reverse direction and filter back down the green! In the case of #13's rear bunker, if the ball over-ran the "kick-up" it was caught by this bunker that sits on the natural grade behind and above the green making recovery back down the "kick"-up" slope really hard!

[michael j fay]

Patrick:

I think the flash-up bunkers that were built by after Ross architects were the product of two things:
1. The Architects desire to bunker the rear of the green.
2. The desire to be consistent with the Ross genre that the course was visible to the player (i.e. all the hazards could be seen.

I also believe this is why Mr. Ross did not build that many back bunkers.

Tom:

I have the see Gulph Mills. I should have seen it by now but I have been lax in my Philadelphia golf.

[Chris Pike]

One of my favorites is the horseshoe bunker behind the sixth green at Highlands Links:

[Patrick_Mucci]

John Stiles & Michael Fay,

Is the rear bunker behind # 14 at Seminole an original Ross bunker ?

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