Running Deer (NJ)

[Jason Mandel]

One of the courses I really want to get out and see this summer is Running Deer in south jersey.

It opened a couple of years ago and it was the dream of Ed Carman and his family.  His son, JR was an old assistant pro at our club and he is now the pro there.  I have heard nothing but good things about the place, it is apparently private but very reasonable.  

Apparently the elder Carman, who I believe used to be a super, designed the course himself and the whole place is run by the various Carman's.  I haven't heard too much about it on here, and was wondering what those who have played it thought about the place?

What kind of feel does it give off?  If I know JR, he was always a believer in classic architecture and I would be really suprised if his dad didn't build something in homage to that style.  Also, I know there is a plan for homes, but I think the homes are not really around the course too much?  

Where does the course fit in with the newer courses in NJ?

Jason Mandel

[JSlonis]

Jason,

Running Deer would fit very well into the thread for "Obsession with wild greens".  While there are some generally very good holes tee to green, many of the greensites are for me, overly contoured.  This characteristic took away from my overall enjoyment of the course.  The greens are so bold in many spots that they have be to kept very slow for todays standards.  The couple of times I played there I didn't enjoy banging the ball around the greens for 18 holes.  I applaud Mr Carmen for pushing the envelope, you will definitely see something out of the ordinary if you play there.

I have heard through the grapevine that there was some talk of financial difficulty at the club, and I don't know if their problems have been solved as yet.  It is my understanding that they have recently had some new members join who were previously at another local club.

There are some homesites there that border the course, but there are set back far enough from it that they aren't that noticeable.

I know of a few guys that seem to like the course.  Myself...it's not my cup of tea.  I didn't really dislike it, but I wouldn't go out of my way to play it either.  Of the newer courses constructed in this area, I'd place it in the middle tier.

[Matt_Ward]

Jason:

You will find some previous threads on the subject. I really like Running Deer and believe it's a layout people should play when in the deepest reaches of South Jersey in Pittsgrove which is in Salem County. the course is probably easier to access from Wilmington and Baltimore than North and Central Jersey.

It's not bullet-proof from a design perspective -- but there are some unique holes and Ed Carman deserves credit for pushing the envelope with stellar holes like the 2nd (490 yards), 11th (375 yards), 12th (480 yards) and 18th (475 yards).

I would not rate it among the state's top 25 courses but that's because the bar for golf in the Garden State is quite high. Even with that said -- I liked the layout and you really won't get bored when playing.

The Carmans, both Ed and JR are both down-to-earth and really fine folks. There are a number of trees on the property that could be pruned a bit further back, however, no one will ever say Running Deer is some forumlaic design that was simple mailed in.

It's certainly worth a play -- do yourself a favor and head over to Buena -- take Rte 40 to AC -- and play Buena Vista --the William & David Gordon design -- it's a nice public layout (originally a private club) that needs just a little TLC.

If memory serves -- Running Deer plays 7,250 yards from the tips and is on land that has a gentle roll to it.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

I played at Running Deer in a GAP match a few years ago. I tend to agree with Matt's assessment that it is a middle of the road course in the middle of nowhere. There are a few good holes there but the greens are overly contoured. They had a unique membership program based on your home's distance from the club. Walking without caddies is encouraged.
www.runningdeergolfclub.com

I haven't played Buena in about 10 years. Back then it needed a lot of TLC.

Steve

[JSlonis]

Buena is a pretty good golf course that would greatly improve with about 500 guys armed with Homelite's/Poulan's/Stihl's or whatever other chainsaw you can find to get the job done.

Lookout Pine Trees...here we come!

[Matt_Ward]

I never knew how "elastic" the term TLC could mean! I guess JSlonis is suggesting a major makeover is needed at Buena!;D

Jason -- if you have not already played it -- venture up to Williamstown in Gloucester County and play Scotland Run -- likely about 30-40 minutes from Running Deer.

[JSlonis]

Matt,

Is the "selective tree management" of a couple of thousand pine trees, a major makeover?  Since the tree removal plan at my course started I have learned that "Selective Tree Management" is the politically correct way to say... "cut them the hell down"!

From the pine tree's perspective maybe my proposition wouldn't be considered TLC.

From a design perspective and better turfgrass...TLC all the way.

I get clausterphobic on some of those holes there...if I wanted to play in an alley...I'd go bowling or to South Philly.

[Mike_Cirba]

Chalk me up as someone who really enjoys the wild, undulating greens that Ed Carman Sr. created at Running Deer.

Also chalk me up as someone who believes that the trees on several holes need to be pruned back to provide better angles into said greens.

It's not that there isn't enough width between the treelines...it's simply that individual trees have been left "inside the ropes" that create double penalties in many cases and the course could easily be raised a full letter grade without them.

Mr. Carman took a lot of chances, not unlike a Michael Strantz in some ways, and much of it works but holes like the 9th are in need of some serious rethinking.  

All in all, huge points for daring and creativity, and perhaps a C+, B- for overall execution.  Clearly, however, it's not the typical, standard fare.

In the case of Buena Vista, I'm a fan, pure and simple.  I thought the playing areas were wide enough in most cases, but it's the bunkering and angles that really captivated me, particularly on holes like the 10th.

Anyone want to throw Medford Village (like Buena, another William and David Gordon south Jersey course) into this discussion?  I find it fascinating and wonderfully varied.

[mike_malone]

 I hope to play there sometime this year.It can be seen from what i consider the best value in the area--Centerton.For $25 in the offseason this course has  some fascinating green complexes.For example,#2 is 350 or so -flat-but  some 20 yards short of the green is a crossbunker--then it slopes down gently to  a green that slopes from front to back with some internal contours as well.A very neat way to add interest to the hole.#16 is a major league par four--long,demanding off the tee with a difficult green.There a few enjoyable short par fours and even a par five where i like the trees--which come out from both sides some 30 yards short of the green to create a narrow entrance.The variety of routing and shots is fun.I may be influenced by the friends i play there with in the winter.WE LOVE THE CHEESESTEAKS UP THE ROAD!!

[Jason Mandel]

Thanks to all for the comments so far.  I did do a search to find some previous threads, all that really came up were some negative comments from Redanman, so I wasn't sure what everyone else's reaction would be.  JR is a great guy and he used to give me lessons when I was younger, he was a product of the Ledbetter school of swing thought, but the thing I always remember about him was wanting to teach the younger guys how to play the "right way".  One of the problems with getting members may be the location, as it is certainly not convienent from Philly, and its not like its close to the Jersey shore either.

Matt,
Thanks for the suggestion on Buena Vista, to be honest with you I have never even heard of the place, but am eager to try it out because I am a big fan of The Gordon's they did the original layout at White Manor, which is close to my heart, as well as Sunnybrook, where I have caddied at.   I have been meaning to get to Scottland Run for a while now, and will try and make it there this spring or summer.  

Mike,
I've heard good thinks about Medford Village as well but have not gotten there either.

Jason Mandel

[Mike_Trenham]

Mike

I think Mr Carman was/is attached to Centerton and revised that course over a number of years.

Others

Which hole was the hair-pin par-5.  I can't think of a better way to describe the hole.  This is one that I found too over the top for my tastes.

[Mike_Cirba]

Mike Trenham/Michael Malone;

Centerton was designed and built by the very same Ed Carman Sr., in 1962.

[Rob_Waldron]

Mr. Cirba

Either:The world as we know it must be coming to an end   OR you have softened up.  I actually agree with you regaring Running Deer.

I have played it twice and thoroughly enjoyed the experiences. The conditioning was not as good the second time around. I have not been there since the clubhouse has been completed. Ed kept promising me "Something Different" so I not know what to expect.

Ed is usually true to his word.  

Running Deer is like an accident that you can not turn away from...or that hot little thing in college that you knew was going to get you in trouble but you still went back to every weekend.

The greens are unique and the layout is full of surprises! I can not wait to return this summer.

BTW DO NOT MISS DINNER AT THE CENTERTON INN AFTERWARDS....IT IS AWESOME!!!!!

[mike_malone]

Mike Cirba
   I had thought that was true;i guess they went beyond the greens at Centerton when they built Running Deer.

[Mike_Cirba]

Rob Waldron;

You and I agree about a golf course?

A clear sign of the impending apocalypse, wouldn't you agree?  

[Matt_Ward]

Jason:

I second Mike's comments on Medford Village (formerly Sunny Jim's). The layout is also a William & David Gordon design and although it does have some tree issues the overall layout is one of the finest in the Garden State.

It receives little, if any, attention -- part of that is attributable to where it is located.

When you play the first two holes at MV you'll think the course is going for your throat immediately!

Last comments on Running Deer -- given the fact that the terms golf and Salem County would never be joined together I can say that Ed Carman did a fine job given his background and what the land can provide. Like I said initially, and something that Mike and redanman concur with, the tree issue needs to be addressed. Bowling alley fairways only narrow the shot options and minimizes overall strategic plays.

[TEPaul]

You're not kidding the greens of Running Deer are overly contoured! Sometimes you can take the right basic idea and really overdo it. I haven't been over there in a long time but how about that hole they basically sunk below grade?

By the way, I ran into Stephen Kay yesterday at a GAP/PGA rules seminar and he said he's about to work on a course in Long Island where they're going to sink the entire golf course below pre-construction grade and sell off millions of tons of sand. So much sand, in fact that just trucking it out of there is going to make the project take about two years instead of the usual ten months!

[Matt_Ward]

Here is the hole-by-hole for Running Deer (back tee length)

74.5 / 134

1st / 383 yds.
2nd / 491 yds.
3rd / 373 yds.
4th / 523 yds.
5th / 153 yds.
6th / 421 yds.
7th / 185 yds.
8th / 411 yds.
9th / 502 yds.
Out = 3,442 / 36

10th / 406 yds.
11th / 378 yds.
12th / 479 yds.
13th / 246 yds.
14th / 552 yds.
15th / 361 yds.
16th / 187 yds.
17th / 546 yds.
18th / 477 yds.
In = 3,632 / 36

[Rob_Waldron]

Mike C

I guess we should schedule to play Running Deer sometime this year. Let me know your availability.  

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Ron Jaworski's Golf Management Company now owns Running Deer. Here's an article with an interesting comment from a reader:

http://www.thedailyjournal.com/article/20100807/SPORTS/8070343

[Matt_Ward]

Steve, et al:

If anyone has played it recently -- would be interesting to know how good the turf quality is.

The greens were suspect the last time I played it -- several years ago.

thanks ...

[Steve_ Shaffer]

My wife and I played Running Deer on Monday on the way home after spending a few days at the NJ shore. It was a hot and humid day- at least 92' and very close on the course as the trees blocked whatever breeze there may have been. The turf quality has been adversely affected by the summer heat, humidity and stress. Many fairways were severely spotty and the greens were soft as a pillow and very slow. The super was out on the course with his staff inspecting the greens. I asked him if the fall weather would help him out. He responded  that the course needs a good 6" snow cover for the entire winter to ease conditions for next year. We quit after 16 holes as the heat and humidity was too much for us.

The course has good bones and was fun to play. Here are some pictures courtesy of the club:

1st hole approach:




10th green

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Here are the ratings/slopes:

Black @7104y 74.3/134
Blue@6758y 70.8/129
White@6410y 70.8/126

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Here are my thoughts on some of the more interesting holes:

2 is a long  par four, stretching 492 yards from the tips but 442 from the whites where I played. The split fairway is  deceiving.  A very long approach awaits . Trees on both sides certainly narrow the fairway, but it's the length that will get you. The green slopes from back to front.

3 is a beautiful, short par four at  381 yards from the tips and 345 from the whites. The landing area is flanked on the right by trees and the left by a sandy, clay pit which wraps around most of the hole. The  second shot will be played down towards the island green which is surrounded by clay and the natural sand. The immense putting surface is three-tiered.

5 is the first par three on the course is the shortest of the quartet at just 152 yards from the tips and 126 from the whites.There is  trouble on the right and the green  has plenty of character.

7 is a  par three that runs up to 184 yards from the tips and 161 from the whites. The hole is played over a clay and natural sand quarry. The putting surface is 50 yards wide and shallow, making your target even more difficult. A back-left flag could add 20 yards to the hole.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

9 at 538 yards from the tips and 483 from the whites is the shortest par five on the course. The key is the tee ball, which must favor the right side or play short of the "Hell’s Half Acre” like waste area down the center of the fairway. A successful tee shot will leave a 200-220 yard shot to the green.. Several bunkers protect the front of the green.

11 is another short par four on the course at 357 yards from the tips and 320 from the whites. It’s a sharp dogleg left cape hole over water. Trees hug the entire right side of the fairway, while three bunkers guard the right corner of the landing area. Water creeps out on the left side and then runs in front-left of the green. Bunkers guard the rear and right of the putting surface, which slopes from back to front.

13 is a long par three at 243 yards from the tips and 187 from the whites. There is a bunker short and left and the green with its back-to-front slope, has a lot of character.

15 is 361 yards from the tips and 317 from the whites. There is a massive bunker short of the green and the two-tiered green slopes back to front.

It was too hot and humid to take the time for photos. Perhaps a  return visit in the fall is in order.