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SPDB

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Did Tillinghast "Sell Out"?
« Reply #425 on: April 13, 2004, 09:20:03 PM »
Look at the DH's on the frontside of Newport CC, most notably #6, with what can only be described as a quintessential DH only 20-40 yards in front of the tees from which Duffers would presumably play.

« Last Edit: April 13, 2004, 09:21:06 PM by SPDB »

Mike_Cirba

Re:Did Tillinghast "Sell Out"?
« Reply #426 on: April 14, 2004, 09:38:21 AM »
Jeff Brauer;

Thank you for a very fine synopsis.  

The only point I'd completely disagree with is your mention of Gulph Mills as a course that wasn't bunkered much in the DH range.  In fact, Wayne Stiles in 1940 (and others over time) removed much of Donad Ross's original bunkering in those areas.  

I'd also say that the analogy between removing bunkers in the DH range and where to turn a dogleg are two different things.  If distance the duffer hits the ball is now 180-200 instead of 140 in Tilly's time,  I'd expect to see bunkers in that range, but we both know that's rare.

No, generally I think their wholesale removal during that time period stemmed from a belief that fairway bunkering should be placed to only affect the accomplished player.    

Sean;

A picture is certainly worth 18 pages of typed words.  

It would be interesting to know how many of those bunkers were placed by Tilly, and how many by other architects at Newport who came before him.  

All;

Fellows;

I think you know that I have the utmost respect and admiration for all of you and I've tried to keep any disagreements we've had light-hearted and at times, even humorous, while still strongly advocating my opinions.  

I'm perplexed that the overall tone of the discussion on that thread couldn't have been a little bit more in that spirit.  

Certainly, the historical record is muddy enough for reasonable, well-intentioned people to disagree about our own interpretations and conclusions without us questioning each other's motives in a divisive way.  Perhaps my somewhat inflammatory title contributed to that, but it certainly wasn't meant to lead to anything but an exploration of what Tillinghast did during this period, how his architectural "evolved" through his career, what contributory factors within and outside the game contributed to that evolution, and what that meant to the thinking of architects who came after Tilly.  

Frankly, I also wanted us to have a discussion where the idolatry of Golden Age architects was tweaked a little bit.  We tend to see their genius but they were hardly perfect or infallible.  They had interests and motivations beyond the game and those factors affected where they were at creatively at any point in time.   If Tom Fazio went on a whirlwind tour of one day trips to courses across the land, recommending the removal of 7,000 bunkers, we'd be apoplectic.  

All I was asking for is some objectivity, open-mindedness, historical fact-finding and relativity in our views and common understanding on a topic we are ALL mutually passionate about, the history of the game's courses.

Thanks for participating and I would sincerely apologize to anyone who feels the slightest bit offended by anything I've written here.

And now, for my part, I'm hoping to see this thread fade away...goodnight Mrs. Calabash, wherever you are.

Mike    
« Last Edit: April 14, 2004, 09:41:58 AM by Mike_Cirba »

SPDB

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Did Tillinghast "Sell Out"?
« Reply #427 on: April 14, 2004, 12:11:36 PM »
Mike - i'm not certain that it matters. there is also some confusion over how much of Newport is Ross and how much is Tillie. Would be an interesting other thread.

JSlonis

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Did Tillinghast "Sell Out"?
« Reply #428 on: April 14, 2004, 12:40:54 PM »
Mike,

As soon as I get some specifics on what was done at Tavistock I will post them here.  I spoke to our Supt. last night at a meeting and he seemed to think that it is difficult to tell all the Tillie changes.  Hopefully, Jim Nagle will be able to shed more light on the issue.

Mike_Cirba

Re:Did Tillinghast "Sell Out"?
« Reply #429 on: April 14, 2004, 01:27:52 PM »
Sean;

Since the story I know is that Tillinghast redesigned Newport in 1924, you're right...it doesn't matter if those bunkers were placed by him or left by him.  It was his choice at that time.

I'd be interested to learn more about the Ross/Tilly connection there.  Why don't you start a thread and maybe we'll learn the full scoop?

Thanks!

Jamie;

Thanks!  I'm looking forward to hearing about Tavistock's architectural history, especially given my interest in Alex Findlay.  

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