Did Tillinghast "Sell Out"?

[T_MacWood]

RW
Thanks for sharing those letters....especially if you have to type them out yourself.

[Rick Wolffe]

I always liked this one as it sheds some light on the determination of his personality.  It also shows his keen interest in agonomy.  Tilly was a champion of the Greenkeeper and founder/supporter of the USGA Green section.

Houston, Texas, January 3rd 1936

The President of the P.G.A.

Dear Sir:

Yesterday was given over to the long drive here from New Orleans, 406 miles.  I will scarcely attempt this distance again in one day for it is a bit too much.  The hard storms throughout the night of the first had flooded the low lands and for some miles the going was extremely bad.  For one stretch of probably five miles the road was entirely submerged and the water was over the running-boards.  Nothing to do for it but to keep the wheels moving ahead.  There was no going back.

Today I went over two courses, - the River Oaks Country Club, at the request of p.G.A. member Jack Burke, and the Houston Country Club at the request of the president of the Texas section of the P.G.A. – Willie Maguire.

At River Oaks I was accompanied around the course by Jack Burke (an old friend of mine, Greenkeeper Jack Maguire and H.A. Kipp (a member of the executive committee and an engineer who had collaborated in the original preparation of plans.  My general observations concerned the elimination of unnecessary traps, the gradual correction of sharp slopes by blending and softening, the rearrangement of hazards about numerous greens but in particular the reconstruction plan for the fifth, a hole of 348 yards, which had been recently partially destroyed by the breaking of a levee bank during a flood.  The rearrangement of the second green also received special attention.  This course furnished another illustration of a gradual skimping of green mowing, which in many instances had pulled the greens entirely away from the guarding traps, which never had been quire close-up.  Apparently they appreciated the service very much and expressed satisfaction.

I was particularly pleased with my inspection of the course of the Houston Country Club, which was made in the company of Willie Magure, his greenkeeper C.P. Welti and E.G. Goforth, Chairman of the Green Committee.  Maguire’s long experience in developing Bermuda turf and winter greens of Bermuda base is will proved here.  Indeed he has produced the best greens of this type that I have ever observed.  A very valuable conclusion is this; - Instead of introducing Italian Rye with the Bermuda, for winter greens, he uses instead Red Top, Meadow Fescue and Blue Grass.  A fine putting turf is the result and these strains do not linger in the spring, battling with the Bermuda, but quickly disappear and the summer greens rapidly find themselves.

I made many suggestions, particularly on the hole of the first nine, excepting the 6th, 8th and 9th.  These holes; - 1, 2,3,4,5 and 7, were those which do not equal the holes of the last nine and it was concerning these that they particularly wanted me to cover with my advise.  This I did completely, particularly rearranging the third.  There were numerous unnecessary pits of obsolete types and these of course were condemned.  I also made a sketch for rearrangement of the fourth green, which was much too big for the shot.  I may remark that the eighteenth hole here is one of the best to be found anywhere, and altogether I found the course generally of unusual charm.

Tomorrow I continue on to San Antonio, to resume my schedule for Texas and Oklahoma.

Very truly yours

A.W. Tillinghast

[Rick Wolffe]

I guess it would be a stretch to say Tilly saw an early proof of the little red book.

Austin, Texas, January 7th 1936

President of the P.G.A.

Dear Sir:

The second cold wave of the winter caught me here today, and rain came with it.  However I was able to give my attention to the two requests from this city.

First, at the request of P.G.A. member Harvey Penick, I went to his course at the Austin Country Club.  He wanted specifically guidance in the location and building of a new green for the eleventh hole, one of 112 yards.  I gave him all the information he desired and the new green will be built about twenty yards back of the present.  After general comments regarding the softening of slopes and the elimination of unnecessary pits, I went with his brother, Tom Penick, P.G.A. member who I located at the Austin Municipal Golf Course.

There I was met by City Manager Guiton Morgan, the city engineer J.E. Motherall and Walter Seaholm, also of the City’s engineering department.  After discussing the proper fairway irrigation system with them, I investigated particularly certain holes, which they find necessary to improve and at the same time open up additional lengths.  The course at present measures but 5737 yards.

I recommended a new teeing ground and green for the two hundred yard third hole; a new green back of the present fourth, lengthening that hole 40 yards to 470; a new teeing ground and green for the seventh, lengthening the hole some 30 yards to 435; sketches for contouring the sixteenth green and drawing pits into the greens of the seventeen and eighteen.

The city officials expressed their great satisfaction and heartily commended the assistance of the P.G.A., coming to them through their professional.  I then prepared to depart for Waco, where I will arrive tonight.

Very truly yours

A.W. Tillinghast

[TEPaul]

Rick:

Thank you from me too for putting so many of Tillinghast's PGA tour letters up here. His theme from those letters during that tour seems to be sort of equally divided between identifying and/or making recommendations for holes the club has identified as weak or problematic in some way as well as identifying and condemning DH and other useless bunkers as well as resizing greens and correcting drainage problems and the slope of greenside bunkering to meld into the green sides correctly.

It seems obvious, as well that he's intent on both specifically identifying and naming those at each club that're of help or can be--eg green chairman, President, pro and superintendent.

[Rick Wolffe]

This is another favorite and perhaps appropriate on the eve of the Masters.  On his way to Augusta, Tilly pays an unexpected visit on Donald Ross.  Tilly afraid that Donald will blow the whistle on his "selling out," slips the Don a package with his share of the PGA greenbacks.  Oops, sorry, I am slipping again.

It may be interesting to contrast this letter to the article Tilly says he plans to write.  Not to plug Gleanings from the Wayside, but the article appears as Chapter 35, "The Masterpiece of Donald Ross."



Augusta, Georgia, December 6th 1935

President of the P.G.A.

Dear Sir:

Getting an early start this morning, I drove to Pinehust, North Carolina (altogether only 12 miles off the direct route to this place)  I was fortunate to find Donald Ross at home and for quire a while I sat in his house and discussed with him the P.G.A. course service.  As you recall, he was not inclined to favor this when it was first proposed.  However he had read in the current number of the P.G.A. magazine the remarks I made at the recent annual meeting at Chicago, and as a consequence he already had regarded my work in an entirely different light than at first.  After I had gone into detail and fully explained our motives and told of the exact nature of my activities since the start he expressed his entire approval and further added; - “If you can encourage worthy young golf course architects and builders to carry on the work properly after you and I are gone, it will be very worth while.”

His welcome was most cordial and he insisted on showing me every hole on the Number 2 course, where next year’s P.G.A. National Championship will be played.  We analyzed the various holes together.  Donald is certain that this is his greatest piece of work and he is tremendously proud of it, as he may well be for it is a truly a great course, without a single weak hole,- without a doubt one of the greatest of all American courses.  I whole-heartedly congratulated him on his great achievement and he was pleased when I told him that I would write a story about the course for a future number of the P.G.A. magazine.  I believe that such a story will prove of great interest to the professionals of the association, throughout the country.  I enclose a card of the course for your inspection.

After leaving Pinehurst I continued my journey to Augusta, Georgia, where I arrived tonight.  In the morning I will drop in on Dave Ogilvie and also at the Augusta National.  I will now arrive at Macon exactly on scheduled time (for I was half day ahead) and my next report will be sent you on Monday night, after I have conferred with George Norrie.

Very truly yours

A.W. Tillinghast

[TEPaul]

"Tilly afraid that Donald will blow the whistle on his "selling out," slips the Don a package with his share of the PGA greenbacks.  Oops, sorry, I am slipping again."

After the subject of this 14 page "discussion", that's beautiful!

So the great Donald Ross after perusing one of the PGA articles (PGA "Number") that we've all been perusing changed his mind and approved of what Tillinghast was doing on his tour!?

Perhaps at this point Tom and Mike should make their case that Donald Ross was also "selling out" or compromising his architectural principles for complimenting Tillie on what he was doing!  

[T_MacWood]

TE
Do you think Tilly recommended a few pits or DH's be filled in at Pinehurst #2?

It sounds to me that Ross was more concerned about the ramifications of a mission that gives architectural services away for free. And it turns out his concerns were warranted because very few clubs hired architects to carry out the work--according to Graffis (one notable exception being PCC-Spring Mill, where Flynn was brought in to carry out Tilly's changes).

In December 1935 his new architectural ideas had not been disclosed in detail via articles--those came in 1936. In his early article (Oct. '35) about his PGA service he mentions generally DH's but his specific idea about a Duffer's ranges came well after their meeting.

I wonder if anyone knows or if there is record of Ross's side of the story....it would be interesting to compare.

Most of Tilly's ideas were excellent during this period. The idea of orienting greens and the master pit found in Simplicty and Tucking (by the way I agree with Mike C's interpretation, this article has nothing to do with Duffers range) is excellent...he seems to have adopted many of Tom Simpson's ideas.

In the PGA service article he mentions a club (built in 1915) in Upstate NY is which he removed 25 choclate drops and pits...any idea what course....any chance it was Ross's Irondiquoit?

RW
Are the letters complete...in other words do the number of courses Tilly was said to have vistited match the number in the letters or are there gaps?

One of the reasons I ask is Tilly claimed to have removed 90+  bunkers from a single course...if I was to guess I would have said that was Hollywood, NJ. He did advise in North NJ  according to your partial list of courses in the last Tilly book.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tom MacWood,

Hollywood isn't in North Jersey.

Are you sure you're not confusing the west coast club with the east coast club ?

[TEPaul]

"TE
Do you think Tilly recommended a few pits or DH's be filled in at Pinehurst #2?"

Tom MacW:

No, but it wouldn't surprise me if you do!  

[T_MacWood]

Sorry Pat...I should have said the NYC Metro sphere of NJ that Tilly visited. That is an important distinction....thank you for your imput.

[TEPaul]

"according to Graffis (one notable exception being PCC-Spring Mill, where Flynn was brought in to carry out Tilly's changes)."

Tom MacW:

That's very interesting and something we were not aware of (or at least I'm not perhaps WayneM is). If that's true that's excellent research on your part--if he doesn't have that. I wasn't aware that the changes made to Philly Country were changes recommended by Tillie. I thought the greens at Philly were not draining well and not working well and both Flynn and Perry Maxwell were brought in to correct that problem. Philly's greens today are a most interesting combination of Flynn and Maxwell! But now you're saying TIllie recommended the removal of a bunch of DH bunkers or other things at Philly and Flynn came in and did that? Again, if that's true we'd sure like to see that documnented.

Thanks.

[TEPaul]

"Most of Tilly's ideas were excellent during this period. The idea of orienting greens and the master pit found in Simplicty and Tucking (by the way I agree with Mike C's interpretation, this article has nothing to do with Duffers range) is excellent...he seems to have adopted many of Tom Simpson's ideas."

Tom MacW:

Yes, I'd like this post to show I very much do disagree with you and apparently Mike Cirba too on your interpretation of some of these articles and what Tillinghast meant by those articles.
 
That quotation I gave you yesterday in Chapter 29, in my opinion, very much does relate to the things he said in Chapter 28 (Simplicity in Bunkering which very much does relate to DH zone bunkering among other things) particularly since the sentence in chapter 29 relating to not considering his system invariable begins with the words "It may be recalled that my last article...." The last article he's referring to is "Simplicity in Bunkering".

And he did submit chapter 28 in August and chapter 29 in September.

As you well know I think the thing you need to do more of or do better is to look at Tillinghast articles and what he was doing during that time in its entirety (as Phil and apparently RickW have mentioned before) and stop fixating in a vacuum on these little issues of yours to make some major point like Tillinghast was compromising his architectural principles.

You still don't seem to have admitted that this 7,000 bunker issue you've been thowing around on this thread to help prove your point about Tillinghast may not related to JUST that first DH zone bunkering.

[TEPaul]

I must say that one benefit of this thread has been it's made me go back and reread with a specific purpose the trilogy compliled by the Tillinghast Society of Tillie's voluminous writing over such an interesting time span.

I realize now that Tillinghast's career writing has perhaps given us the most comprehensive written record of the thinking in architecture of a particulalry fascinating time from as many viewpoints as anyone has ever produced in the annals of architecture.

More than ever I now see that when looking at a specific time or a specific subject in history as this thread deals with it's completely important to understand Tillinghast's writing in it's entirety.

For instance, the subject of this thread concerns his PGA tour recommendations and work and I just reread Chapter 30 which deals with things other than DH bunkering---it deals with all the ramifications of slopes and their construction from playability to appearance to maintenance efficiencies!

And this article too was written during and for his PGA tour in the mid 1930s. All this makes me realize more than ever that it's very dangerous in trying to determine an accurate historical perspective what the influence and gist of what he was doing if one focuses too specifically one just one part of it as Tom MacWood seems to have done (DH bunkering and the fact that alone might indicates a compromise in architectural principle).

[Mike_Cirba]

"Tilly afraid that Donald will blow the whistle on his "selling out," slips the Don a package with his share of the PGA greenbacks.  Oops, sorry, I am slipping again."

After the subject of this 14 page "discussion", that's beautiful!

So the great Donald Ross after perusing one of the PGA articles (PGA "Number") that we've all been perusing changed his mind and approved of what Tillinghast was doing on his tour!?

Perhaps at this point Tom and Mike should make their case that Donald Ross was also "selling out" or compromising his architectural principles for complimenting Tillie on what he was doing!  

Actually, as part of the deal, and to express his thankfulness to Tillie for removing many useless DH bunkers from Pinehurst #2, Ross pledged to the Philadelphian Tillinghast that he would do some future product adverts.

[TEPaul]

MikeC:

I'm not sure what you meant and the photos an (X). But you may be wrong again on what Tillinghast may've been doing and saying to Ross in Pinehurst when he stopped in to visit him on his way south during the PGA project.

Tillinghast was probably saying to Ross, in his inimitable way;

"Donald, you're not such a bad fellow afterall for a total independent who never shared anything with any of the rest of us. And if you haven't read between the lines all these years I'm here to tell you that we of the "Philadelphia School of Architecture" aren't in the slightest bit sorry we completely shut you out of our tight little fraternity all these years. You did slip in there somehow with Aronimink in 1929 but I don't think that course will ever cut the mustard compared to what we did in that town!"

Or perhaps, as they neared the end of their careers and sat together that day in Pinehurst, perhaps they hauled out the flasks and laughed about the necessity and effect of hyperbole in golf architecture and architectural salesmanship!

I'm here to tell you that GMGC is a wonderful little members course and always has been but the things Ross said to us in the beginning is an excellent example of some of the most exgregious hyperbole and salesmanship known to architecture.

You appear to be interested in the architectural trends of this era, Mike, and perhaps some of the things that were going on during that time when Tillie visited Ross in Pinehurst. The transitions in architecture from one era to another, if you will, and as you've mentioned or implied on this thread.

I believe that RTJ could've been perhaps the greatest salesman in the history of golf architecture and I think the record will show---when it's properly investigated---that he definitley learned a thing or two about hyperbole and architectural salesamanship, either directly or indirectly, from those two old hyperbole smoothies---Tillinghast and Ross!

[Mike_Cirba]

Tom;

Is the picture not showing up on your PC?  

It's a clear picture of Donald Ross, posed next to a Philadelphia product he has "sold out" for years to shill, Tillie's "Quaker Oats".   Now that we know they secretly met during this timeframe, can their be any doubt they were co-conspirators beyond more than hyperbole and salesmanship.

I also believe Tillie scolded Ross for creating so many top-shot, useless DH bunkers through the years, and Ross clearly saw the light and stopped the practice forthwith.

"And now......you know the rest of the story!!  Page Fifteen"    

[Mike_Cirba]

Of course, I could be mistaken but the evidence seems irrefutable that Tillie and Ross were co-conspiring to end the Golden Age.

Still, not everyone is buying it.  For instance, I was sent photographic evidence that asserts that Ross was actually walking the coast of Ireland at the time of the alleged Tillinghast meeting, looking for the perfect place to build his only links course.  (without DH or "top shot" bunkers, of course).

Judge for yourself..

[T_MacWood]

Mike
I think you might be on to something...I am absolutely convinced the fellow on the oatmeal box is RTJ...the pieces are just now starting fit!

[Mike_Cirba]

Tom;

This is BIG and makes the DaVinci Code look like simple coincidence.  

Shhhhhhhh...we may be in danger.  

[Mike_Cirba]

Coincidence?  

I think not.

[TEPaul]

Tom MacWood:

Regarding your post #344 you are truly amazing, in my opinon. I'm surely not going to piecemeal through that post and answer you again because we've been through those very same details and quotations and articles and pieces of them in this discussion on this thread before. I'm afraid I just don't agree at all with the way you analyze articles and the written word. We see two very different things apparently while looking at the very same material.

You continue to maintain that Tillinghast very definitely changed his architectural philosophy in 1935-1936, particularly regarding bunkering for the duffer in that short range off the tee and consequently compromised his architectural principles. I believe you are simply wrong about that and I believe the evidence you're using to support that contention just doesn't support that contention at all.

You base your entire contention on the way you analyze that evidence, and again, I just don't believe you've analyzed that evidence correctly--the very opposite in fact, in my opinion.

And I'm sorry to see you say when I mention how I think you're going about analyzing this evidence in the context of the subject of this thread that sounds to you like a lecture. I certainly have no interest in lecturing you about how you go about research, only to tell you what I think of it and why. This is a discussion, nothing more, in my opinion.

[Mike_Cirba]

I see my lame attempts to introduce some much needed levity to this thread went over like a lead balloon.  

Oh, by the way, I'd like to thank Rick Wolffe for his sharing of some really interesting historical material.  

I still think this thread uncovered some really interesting facts and some passionate, if differing opinions.  

[Rick Wolffe]

Hmmm.  Was Bill Fynn part of the Tilly-Ross sell out?


Harrington Park, N.J. September 21st 1935

President of the P.G.A.

Dear Sir:

Arrived home tonight after a week in Philadelphia, reports of which have been mailed you each evening.

Today was spent with the president of the Philadelphia section of the P.G.A. – Ed Dudley.  First I met him at his headquarters, - the old course of the Philadelphia Country Club at Bala.  There I met the superintendent of both the old and new courses, M.E. Farnham, who afterwards accompanied Dudley and myself to the new course at Spring Mill, where we were met later by the chairman of the green committee, - D.W. Bell.  I was requested to select the better of two routes and design of the first hole, which I did.  I examined all parts of the new course, where any problems existed and gave them opinions.  Where several problems, involving major construction, were evident I suggested that the retain William Flynn, a local golf course architect and construction man.  However I gave them suggestions and told the committee that I would be glad to confer with Flynn at any time, being as helpful as possible as is consistent with the aims and operation of our P.G.A. service.

There are several more requests from P.G.A. members in the Philadelphia district (made to Ed Dudley, sectional president) notably Lanarch and Concord, - as well as three from Reading.  The Reading service will be given next week, after the close of the Ryder Cup Matches.

Very truly yours

A.W. Tillinghast

[Rick Wolffe]

Hmmm... Perhaps Tillie was being paid under the table and that is how he came up with the funds to buy the Don.


Harrington Park, N.J. October 1st 1935

President of the P.G.A.

Dear Sir:

Yesterday I went over to the south shore of Long Island and went over parts of the Inwood course with Jack Mackie, of the Executive Committee of the P.G.A.  There we were joined by Jack Pirie, at whose request I made the visit for the purpose of advising him about several improvements at his nearby course of the Woodmere Club.  There we partially prepared a model for a new twelfth green but as the chairman of his green committee was prevented from being present, I arranged to revisit the Woodmere course today, when he could be there.

This afternoon I again visited Woodmere and after a careful survey of the site for the new green, completed the model, and met Max Hesslein, the chairman.  With him and Pirie, I examined the eleventh and thirteenth holes, which are to be rearranged and new teeing grounds introduced.  Mr. Hesslein was evidently pleased with our service and intimated that he would like me to again be with them at some future time to advise concerning further improvements.  We said that he would be glad to pay the P.G.A. for the service but I informed him that this was not consistent with our policy and that the service was rendered freely only to such clubs where a P.G.A. member was affiliated.  He then suggested that the club be permitted to make some donation to the Benevolent Fund of the association.  I told him that this matter must remain fro you to decide.

Very truly yours

A.W. Tillinghast

[Rick Wolffe]

The conspiracy hit a snag in Boston, but this was no problem for a guy from Phily and Jersey.  Tilly talked these bush league Boston mobsters in circles and quickly grabbed the territory -- taking Maine and New Hampshire for good measure too.



Boston, Massachusetts
August 21st 1936

President of the P.G.A.

Dear Sir:

This morning, at their request, I attended a meeting of the executives of the Massachusetts Section of the P.G.A. presided over by president Dick May of Metacomet.  They gave the P.G.A. course service a warm welcome and after secretary Marty Keane had announced the various requests, a comprehensive schedule was fixed.  It will take me three weeks to finish the section this time and I will have to reach up into Maine and New Hampshire.  We have two requests from the latter state and Keane corrected his misstatement concerning George McQueen of Franconia, who is a member after all.

I ran into a situation here, which at first seemed rather alarming.  The New England Green Keepers’ Association, who have never affiliated themselves with the national association, but keep aloof, resented my visit, not fully understanding our motives.  They are a very serious body of capable and well qualified men.  At the request of the P.G.A. executives here I met a representation of the greenkeepers here at the Somerset Hotel last night.  They were headed by their president, Howard Tarrange, T.W. Swanson and Frank H. Wilson (who had been a chief objector)  I addressed them and in detail explained our motives.  At the finish they all expressed their complete satisfaction and indeed were most friendly, particularly Frank Wilson, and without exceptions expressed the desire that I might visit their clubs.  I was very pleased of course.

This afternoon I visited the course of the Walpole Country Club with Marty Keane.  We were joined there by the greenkeeper Jim Balmayne, S.D. Chamberlain (president of the club) and H.D. Rogers (of the committee)  They wanted me particularly to advise them concerning a rearrangement of their course, which I did completely and their evident satisfaction.

My address here is the Hotel Somerset and all mail may be forwarded to me here.  Even when I go up into Maine and Mew Hampshire in a week or ten days, it will be held for me here pending my return.  Certainly the reaction to our service in the New England section is most gratifying.

Very truly yours

A.W. Tillinghast

AWT