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Tim_Weiman

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Re:Did Tillinghast "Sell Out"?
« Reply #25 on: March 22, 2004, 07:08:55 PM »
Mike Cirba:

About five years ago I had the opportunity to read about fifty of Tillinghast's trip reports from his consulting days. What stood out in these reports was how few recommendations he made for changes to any of the courses.

Unfortunately, I seem to have misplaced my file that had these reports or I'd be happy to send you copies. But, nothing I recall reading suggested "sell out". Mostly what came across was restraint.

Tim
Tim Weiman

T_MacWood

Re:Did Tillinghast "Sell Out"?
« Reply #26 on: March 22, 2004, 07:46:29 PM »
Philip
It is inmaterial if the club paid Tillinghast or the PGA paid him...the point is he got paid. It is misleading to say the clubs did not pay him a penny. Jobs were not easy come by during the Depression, Tillinghast had a job advising clubs and the result was the removal of 10,000 bunkers. He didn't do it for free.

How many of the 200+ bunkers at Brook Hollow were duffer's headaches?

What was the difference between the bunkering scheme at Brook Hollow and Hollywood--weren't they both full of duffer's headaches?

Do you find it ironic that he was eliminating bunkers from coast to coast at the same time one of his most severely bunkered course was being completed? Wasn't the entire Bethpage-Black concieved as the ultimate duffer's headache?
« Last Edit: March 22, 2004, 07:52:20 PM by Tom MacWood »

Jeff_Brauer

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Re:Did Tillinghast "Sell Out"?
« Reply #27 on: March 22, 2004, 07:59:34 PM »
Tom,

In Tillie's defense, NYC asked him to do one tough course as part of a municipal complex of five courses.  I think there was and is room for a variety of courses under certain circumstances, and he recognized that.  I think he even wrote that the Black would be impractical in most cases.  However, when the biggest city in the world wants to demonstrate that public golf courses - which he surely saw as the future - didn't have to be ho-hum, he actively participated in that creation, thinking of the future of public golf.  Of course, many PGA clients were struggling in the here and now, as is usual, but it must have been fun to aid in a great vision.

Did he sell out?  I don't think so. But in reading his reports, I was struck by the fact that both he and MacKenzie in promoting their services during the Great Depression got on the cost efficient bandwagon, keeping with the times, which had changed drastically.  In so doing, I see them being repsonsible for much of post war design, and there being much less of a "disconnect" than people assume here, with the oldies retiring before Jones came on the scene.  

Its quite possible that when the next generation of architects arrived, they saw more rationale in the last of the Golden Age masters works than in their first - which were done in the roarig twenties, on great sites, etc.  What the fifties offered, was probably closer to the thirties in most cases, with the added burdens of fitting to housing developments on a grander scale, and post war technology increasing distances for pros, while the next generation of masses going to the courses didn't appreciate the golden age heroic carries.

Again, just my opinions, and not particularly backed up with shcolarly research.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

T_MacWood

Re:Did Tillinghast "Sell Out"?
« Reply #28 on: March 22, 2004, 08:57:13 PM »
Jeff
Did NYC ask Tillie to build one tough golf course (Moses wasn't a golfer)? Or was that Tillie's (and Burbeck's) idea? I believe the latter...his idea. And the Red course was heavily bunkered too. One tough golf course and one super tough golf course. Were the Bethpage courses his last designs?

Like MacKenzie, Tillignhast did what he had to do to find work...even if it meant rejecting their previous design principals and developing new ones. Call it what you want adapting or compromising. The difference MacKenzie developed his new design philosophy to attract new work and Tillie was designing bold course one day (in the heart of the Depression) and removing bunkers from his contemporaries design's the next day.  

Brook Hollow is in your backyard...do you thing he suspended his duffer's headache aversion when designing that golf course?

RTJ was a Stanley Thompson desciple, how does that fit in to your theory? Wasn't RTJ the father of Heroic design?
« Last Edit: March 22, 2004, 09:02:21 PM by Tom MacWood »

Mike_Cirba

Re:Did Tillinghast "Sell Out"?
« Reply #29 on: March 22, 2004, 09:50:14 PM »
Tim/Phil;

I'm not saying that Tillinghast got rich off of his PGA work.  During the Depression, just having a steady, dependable income was better than most folks.  

I'm also sure that he did a thoughtful job.  My point is that Tillinghast worked through most of his career as a man without limits, financial or otherwise.  That type of mindset resulted in the creation of some of the best, most enduring courses in the world.  

Even his earliest design, Shawnee, was bold in scope, aggressive in its bunkering schemes, and brilliant in execution.  Many other masterworks followed and nearly all of them were spawned from a philosophy that reflected Golden Age, "roaring 20s" tendencies to live life to the fullest.

By the 30s, Tillie seemed to have "drawn back", seeing golf and its courses in a more functional, practical, economical way, and was paid to lend professional credence to the ongoing efforts of cost-cutting measures for clubs across the land.

It seems sad to me that such a creative genius was hampered by the practicalities of the time, and probably only human nature that he took to it with such vigor.  It's like George McGovern being asked to cut taxes and reduce spending due to a major recession.  

Perhaps "selling out" is too strong a charge, but don't either of you see a lamentable dichotomy between the type of adventurous, imaginative, free-wheeling courses he regularly produced and the subsequent budget-conscious redesign work he followed it with?  For heaven's sake, it seems to me like asking Barry Bonds to bunt every second at bat.

Is it any wonder that Tillie became tired of the profession?
« Last Edit: March 22, 2004, 09:52:01 PM by Mike_Cirba »

Rick Wolffe

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Re:Did Tillinghast "Sell Out"?
« Reply #30 on: March 22, 2004, 09:59:02 PM »
Personally, I think some of these interpretations of Tilly's design record are a little over the top.

Tilly wrote around 400 letters to George Jacobus summarizing his work for the PGA of America.  (We will try to get these up on the Tillinghast web site in the near future to engender more interpretation, or mis-interpretation.)

I think it is hard to say Tilly sold himself out to anyone.  First, he was an extremely strong willed person who could not be bought by anyone.  (Phil Young is writing the definitive biography on the man and probably has the best interpretation of his character from numerous first-hand and second-hand family sources.)  Second, even though it has been said that anyone can be bought, who was around in the depression with enough cash to buy him?

I think it is very fair to say that Tilly's design style evolved and that he was not afraid to experiment.  I think Rand Jerris has a book in the offing on Tilly's body of work and design style.  I would think that the natural terrain of the site probably was the largest determining factor in how much bunkering Tilly would use in his designs.  (i.e. allot of bunkering on a flat site and much less on a rugged site)  The project budget may have been the second biggest factor.

After reading and studying Tilly's PGA letters, it is safe to say that the so-called Duffer's Headaches (DHs) were bunkers that no longer were part of the design intent of the hole or were simply primitive and un-natural trenches -- mostly found on what Tilly called the "sporty courses," which certainly did not follow Tilly's principals of modern golf course design.   These DH's were not the great strategic diagonal hazards that Mike has put up on the screen.  These were crumy little fairway bunkers that were generally misplaced, poorly constructed and out of play.

An example of Tilly restoring lost design intent, and on a Tillinghast course to boot, was at Hermitage CC (now called Belmont) in Richmond, a circa 1916 design, Tilly wrote that he had to "take his own medicine" and recommended closing a number of side pits, for which he commented that,

   "it must be remembered that general play has lengthened out considerably in twenty years and that long ago we were much closer to another period of course conception."

Tilly recommended the most "DH" removal on the short and sporty courses with these un-natural or contrived features and misplaced bunkers -- most of these courses were designed at the turn of the century.  Most of these course were designed by the lesser known architects -- Bendelow, Douglas, Emmet to name a few.

Now, we can speculate and say, if Tilly came back from the beyond and visited some of these same courses, would he sell out to this DG and argue for a "total restoration" to the sporty old course of yesterday, or would he say what he believes.  Personally, my guess is that he would make a pitch for a "total redesign" contract to bulldoze the course and build a new one with his name on it.




 
 ;)

Phil_the_Author

Re:Did Tillinghast "Sell Out"?
« Reply #31 on: March 22, 2004, 10:27:00 PM »
Tom,

You wrote, "It is inmaterial if the club paid Tillinghast or the PGA paid him...the point is he got paid. It is misleading to say the clubs did not pay him a penny. Jobs were not easy come by during the Depression, Tillinghast had a job advising clubs and the result was the removal of 10,000 bunkers. He didn't do it for free."

This thread was started with Mike asking if Tilly "sold out" by doing the PGA tour & using it as a means of creating work and making money for himself from these clubs. How can you possibly say that he was paid even a penny as an answer to this ascertion? He did the work for free to the clubs. NO club paid anyone for his consultation services.

You wrote, "How many of the 200+ bunkers at Brook Hollow were duffer's headaches?What was the difference between the bunkering scheme at Brook Hollow and Hollywood--weren't they both full of duffer's headaches?"

I have no idea.

You wrote, "Do you find it ironic that he was eliminating bunkers from coast to coast at the same time one of his most severely bunkered course was being completed? Wasn't the entire Bethpage-Black concieved as the ultimate duffer's headache?"

No I don't. What I find ironic is that this part of your response shows that you obviously have yet to appreciate what a "Duffer's Headache" bunker was. If you go back and re-read several of the earlier posts you will see that they are described (by Tillinghast) as usually being a short distance off the tee (140 yards) and designed to cause problems for the Duffer only.

The Black course does not have any bunkers either now, or in the past, that would qualify as such. The entire course was designed to challenge the good to accomplish player. Just because bunkers are a great challenge does not make them a "Duffer's Headache!"

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Did Tillinghast "Sell Out"?
« Reply #32 on: March 22, 2004, 10:53:10 PM »
I have a copy of AWT's "Gleanings from the Wayside" here and will quote from the book:
"It is a known fact that in the summer of 1935 Tillie commenced a tour of the country's golf courses as a consulting architect for the PGA of America.  Tillie's services were provided free of charge and only to golf courses where PGA members were retained.  Tillie's tour lasted two years through the summer of 1937.  He visited over 500 golf courses and has generally been credited with the elimination of thousands of sandtraps, which he called 'Duffer Headaches,' or DHs for short.  Tillie's DHs included obsolete bunkers, unnatural mounds (sometimes called chocolate drops) or other antiquated course features that hinder the higher handicap player, and are costly to maintain.  In fact, in the middle of his tour Tillie wrote, 'It is a matter of record that I have condemned nearly eight thousand sand traps.'"
    "However, few people are aware that Tillie's services were much more than the elimination of obsolete or 'useless' sand bunkers.  In fact, Tillie had significant design input into hundreds of the golf courses he visited.  There are dozens of well known golf courses with complete golf holes and greens designed by Tillinghast on which golfers play day in and day out thinking they are playing on an untouched Donald Ross course."
     Reading the author's commentary as well as Tillie's notes on DHs he removed (even from his own courses), it seems that he was motivated to remove poorly located and/or unnecessary bunkering, a plan which certainly would reduce maintenance costs at a time when budgets were threatened by the Depression.  Since he was on salary and not involved in the work actually done, it surely seems harsh to say he "sold out."
« Last Edit: March 22, 2004, 11:11:53 PM by Bill_McBride »

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Did Tillinghast "Sell Out"?
« Reply #33 on: March 22, 2004, 11:00:16 PM »
As an added note, here's an interesting note from "Gleanings" about a MacKenzie masterpiece in California:

"In reference to other architects of the time, Tillie generally praised the work and capabilities of several of his peers --- Donald Ross, George Thomas, Max Behr, Perry Maxwell, Chandler Egan, and Billy Bell.  However, on the occasion of his examination of the Valley Club in Santa Barbara, Tillie did slightly knock the bunkering on this Alister Mackenzie and Robert Hunter collaboration: 'I complimented Hunter particularly on the masterly manner in which the approaches to the greens were contoured.  This a most noticeable feature of this notably fine collection of holes.  However, there were some useless pits, often in the back-flares of greens, and frequently the arrangement of turf and sand in the hazards was trivial and not worthy of the greater part of the work.'"

The interesting aspect here is that the club hired Tom Doak to restore the bunkering behind several greens, most notably #3 and #15, "scare bunkers" which add great depth to these green sites.  Apparently the club took Tillie's advice 70 years ago and has just now restored those wonderful features!

The book also mentions that Tillie's advice re changes to Bel Air were completely ignored by the club!

T_MacWood

Re:Did Tillinghast "Sell Out"?
« Reply #34 on: March 22, 2004, 11:08:09 PM »
Phil
That 140 yard bunker you refer to is the mathematical cop bunker or trench (that RW mentions)--that type of bunker was mentioned in the 1920 article. I may be mistaken but I do not believe he refers to these bunkers as duffers headaches.

It is my impression the cop bunker was pretty much extinct by 1936.

The DH is mentioned in the 1936 article and I don't believe he specified exactly what a DH was, except a bunker that penalized the duffer. RW mentions a couple of different possiblities.

Do you consider the bunkers short of the Redan at Somerset Hills DH's?

Do you think Tillignhast objected to the sandy waste areas fronting many of the tees at PVGC?

No one said Tilly got rich on his PGA tour, afterall it was during the Depression. There were successful folks jumping out windows, selling pencils on the corner and standing in soup lines. Having gameful employment beat the hell out of those other possiblities. If I were Tilly I'd probably would've done the same.

To keep claiming he was not paid a penny is a total distortion. He got paid, his job was to service the clubs of the PGA.

RW
The Tillinghast Assoc. lists a number of courses designed by Ross, MacKenzie, Fowler, Park, Travis, Barker as part of that PGA tour...were bunkers from these courses among the 7000+ he removed?

I agree Tilly's design style did change over the years, but this is more a change in philosophy. When exactly did he change his philosophy in your opinion (DH aversion). 1930 right after the crash? 1931? 1933? 1935? After Bethpage or before?

And what was the reasons or factors that sparked this change in philosophy?
« Last Edit: March 22, 2004, 11:28:23 PM by Tom MacWood »

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Did Tillinghast "Sell Out"?
« Reply #35 on: March 23, 2004, 02:40:04 AM »
Mike Cirba,

What you, Tom MacWood and others aren't grasping is the impact and severity of the Great Depression on Golf clubs in America.

Clubs had to face serious belt tightening or perish.

Maintainance is usually the largest segment of any clubs overall budget, and as such, the target for any cost containment or reduction efforts.

It would seem highly practical that a club in distress would consult with an eminent architect, offering his services through the PGA, to assist them with the reduction of their
maintainance costs.

I'm sure that word of his services, recommendations and resulting financial savings spread from club to club.

Given the choice of modifying the golf course in an effort to lower costs, in order to continue operating, or choosing the alternative of shutting the doors and auctioning off the golf course, I think his efforts should be viewed as practical and noble.

I think the other possible factor, that many ignore, is that most clubs embarking upon this project probably viewed it as temporary solution to their financial troubles, and that when good times returned, the removed bunkers could be restored.

I would imagine that the error of revisionist history is easy to embrace when you view the removal process in today's context, rather then in the context of a nation under siege.
« Last Edit: March 23, 2004, 04:31:04 AM by Patrick_Mucci »

T_MacWood

Re:Did Tillinghast "Sell Out"?
« Reply #36 on: March 23, 2004, 07:00:42 AM »
Pat
Do you think the whole sale alteration Tilly made (from coast to coast) in those few years prior to WWII set the tone for the atleration in the 50's and 60's?

TEPaul

Re:Did Tillinghast "Sell Out"?
« Reply #37 on: March 23, 2004, 07:57:17 AM »
"I would imagine that the error of revisionist history is easy to embrace when you view the removal process in today's context, rather then in the context of a nation under siege."

Pat:

Bravo!! You are so right about that I can scarcely believe it. This morning you must be squarely in that area (2%) that doesn't happen for you 98% of the time. ;)

Did Tillinghast sell out in the 1930s with his PGA project? I don't think so but only if one looks at what he did in the context of his own time--which as you say is really the only proper way to look at what he did. Few on here seem to get much of an accurate feeling of what was going on back then and how people thought--or let's say didn't think about golf architecture (as some of us do today). It should be better understood what efficiency experts (and how concerned about that they were) some of those professional architects of that time were and what they did in the name of efficiency and economy.

If one put what Tillinghast did back then in the context of our times, of course he'd be selling out--but he didn't live in our times.

There're so many on here who are masterful at coming up with wonderful and documented facts about golf architecture's history and evolution but I'm afraid very few understand how to view those facts accurately in the context of the times they happened. They're very good, though, at viewing those facts in the context of our times--certainly not an altogether useless thing to do actually! But it's impossible to deny that doing that creates massively different perceptions of people and things!

The thing I keep struggling with on this website and elsewhere is how readily those today who care deeply about those old courses label those back in the early days as fools and such. They were anything but that if looked at in the only context they should be looked at---eg in their own time!

This is another good time to reiterate the story of that wonderful 95 year old man and member of our restoration committee when he admitted he was the one who did the things we were complaining about and how back in the day he did them no one understood the things we do now---but that he could now understand and readily agreed with us.

A man like that shows wisdom in both understanding and admitting the vast differences in thinking and most everything else between that era and our own era. A man like that can understand exactly what those differences were and a man like that should now be asked to teach us how to look at that early time after we apparently taught him how to look at ours!

 
« Last Edit: March 23, 2004, 07:59:23 AM by TEPaul »

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Did Tillinghast "Sell Out"?
« Reply #38 on: March 23, 2004, 08:04:14 AM »
Tom MacWood,

It's quite possible.

Like the domino theory, once one alteration is made it can set in motion the environment for additional alterations to be made.

It would be interesting to read the minutes of clubs that altered their courses in the 30's, 50's and 60's.

A_Clay_Man

Re:Did Tillinghast "Sell Out"?
« Reply #39 on: March 23, 2004, 08:34:38 AM »
An interesting ommission from all of this speculation is Tillie's (and Mac's) egos. How much did their egos play a part, in their decisions?

Also, if we consider the bunker removal as "dumbing down" the courses, for the less skilled golfer. Could all this have started a trend to gear the canvas for the less sophisticated? Challenging them less and less, and opening the door for everybodies favorite whine: "That's unfair". And if that's twue, is it any wonder gca evolved into long and down the middle?


Neil Regan

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Did Tillinghast "Sell Out"?
« Reply #40 on: March 23, 2004, 09:05:14 AM »
It would be interesting to read the minutes of clubs that altered their courses in the 30's, 50's and 60's.

Pat,
  I have recently been reading the Winged Foot minutes from the 1930s.
   Survival is the theme. Other clubs are closing or desperate for members. Members are unable to pay their $200 (!) and are being given extensions. Staff is being regretfully reduced, and course conditioning is discussed with the goal of playability (not design principles.)
   In 1933 (I think, from memory) the club invested $7,500 (again, from memory) in maintennance equipment and labor. This is discussed as extraordinary, and justifiable. Numerous members testify that the club was the only one in the area to have playable grass all summer, and the membership committee reports new members joining for that reason.
   Regarding how long-lasting were the effects of the depression era and their contingent priorities, here is an interesting item. I recently read in the USGA Journal archives a letter written in 1955 from Oscar Carlson, the president of Siwanoy very near Winged Foot. He thanks the USGA for their very effective agronomic advice in 1954, and states
Quote
1954 was the first year summer rules were played at Siwanoy since 1939.

  Think about that. As late as 1954, at least, the priority is getting the grass to grow, and not design principles.
Grass speed  <>  Green Speed

Mike_Cirba

Re:Did Tillinghast "Sell Out"?
« Reply #41 on: March 23, 2004, 09:09:13 AM »
Tom/Pat;

Of course I'm viewing Tillinghast's motivation in his own time.  

My point is that you had this brilliant, daring, wild-man who could almost be a characterization of the excesses of the Roaring 20's, and then the Depression hits and he becomes the spokesperson for tamer designs, removal of bunkers and other austerity programs!  Quite the 180, wouldn't you say?

I realize he did what he needed to do to survive.  I'm also suggesting that his new pragmatic tone was more borne of necessity than actual philosophic belief.  I mean, what else could he advise clubs?  They weren't going to buy into any expensive plans so he kept the program going by becoming a champion of bunker removal (I have a tough time imagining 10,000 or more "top shot bunkers", don't you?) which kept him in demand and in good graces with the PGA, who he apparently fastidiously reported the results of his "consultations" to.

I guess the ironic part is that the clubs themselves could have saved money simply by stopping maintaining bunkers, or, at least stopping maintenance on those deemed to be useless and out of play.  Did they really require the advice of a professional to tell them that?

I find the whole thing pretty amazing and ironic, and as much attributable to Tillinghast's salesmanship skills and adaptability as anything else.  


« Last Edit: March 23, 2004, 09:20:29 AM by Mike_Cirba »

TEPaul

Re:Did Tillinghast "Sell Out"?
« Reply #42 on: March 23, 2004, 09:12:25 AM »
"It would be interesting to read the minutes of clubs that altered their courses in the 30's, 50's and 60's."

Pat;

The minutes of my club that're completely preserved are probably as representative as any club as to what happened and why in the 1930s, 1950s and 1960s. In the 1940s too.  
 
 

Mike_Cirba

Re:Did Tillinghast "Sell Out"?
« Reply #43 on: March 23, 2004, 09:15:17 AM »
Pat;

Also, as the guy who posted the brilliant original aerial of Hollywood here, would you agree that Tillinghast's work during those years might not have been to the benefit of architecture in the long run?

T_MacWood

Re:Did Tillinghast "Sell Out"?
« Reply #44 on: March 23, 2004, 09:22:43 AM »
Selling out is too strong…compromising is more accurate in my opinion. I will acknowledge Tilly saved some clubs from the brink of extinction, unfortunately the eradication of 7000+ bunkers was not based upon each club’s financial predicament. Some no doubt were in bad shape, others I’m sure were more financially fit. But his philosophy was universal, he treated the Bel-Air and the Valley Club the same as he did Pontausuk Lake. Which makes sense -- for his mission to be successful he had to have a consistent message.

Thomas, MacKenzie and Tillinghast were all known for creating elaborate bunkering schemes which produced the maximum interest not only for the strong golfer but also the duffer. Many of these bunkers placed in the foreground of these holes and the general  randomness of their bunkering was designed to challenge and create excitement for every level of golfer. The removal of the bunkers at the Valley Club as an example, or Hollywood, or the recommendations at Bel-Air were unfortunate IMO, and ran contrary to Tillinghast’s career long design practices. It would have been interesting to see if he would have carried this new found philosophy into his new design work…..did he design anything after Bethpage?

Also Tillinghast’s systematic removal of these bunkers and the remodeling of hundreds of courses within a couple year period, may have opened the flood gates for what followed after the war. If you compare the old Oakland Hills with the remodeled RTJ Oakland Hills you can see a continuation of some of Tilly’s PGA mentality. The former course was beautifully bunkered with a random en echelon bunkering scheme. RTJ removed all of the fore-bunkers which effected play for the masses, and removed the en echelon quality and replaced it with a symmetrical scheme that pinched the landing area right and left from 240 to 270 yards for the Tiger. This was repeated at Firestone and elsewhere.

Were RTJ, Dick Wilson, RB Harris and others simply picking up the baton Tilly left them?

ForkaB

Re:Did Tillinghast "Sell Out"?
« Reply #45 on: March 23, 2004, 09:39:30 AM »
So what?

Does whatever Tillie did or did not do in the 30's denigrate the quality of the golf courses he designed?  Sruely not.  And, even if he advocated the mass removal of bunkers at certain courses, was that a bad thing?  If so, why?

Just wondering......

T_MacWood

Re:Did Tillinghast "Sell Out"?
« Reply #46 on: March 23, 2004, 09:49:39 AM »
Rich
Surely not.

But like the Art Historians who claim Picasso's creative height occured in 1928 and from there he slid steadily down hill, it is useful (and interesting) to look at the entire career--good and bad.
« Last Edit: March 23, 2004, 09:50:58 AM by Tom MacWood »

Mike_Cirba

Re:Did Tillinghast "Sell Out"?
« Reply #47 on: March 23, 2004, 09:58:18 AM »
So what?

Does whatever Tillie did or did not do in the 30's denigrate the quality of the golf courses he designed?  Sruely not.

Rich - of course not.  He even went on to design Bethpage, at least in terms of hole concepts if not necessarily in on the ground execution during that time.  

  And, even if he advocated the mass removal of bunkers at certain courses, was that a bad thing?  If so, why?

Rich - I think it depends.  I've seen holes where removal of bunkers has improved them and then I see Hollywood as it was and what was lost during those years and am saddened.

It seems a lot of it was done for economic reasons, which often is at odds, or at least a limiting factor, to great architecture.

If all 500 courses he visited acted on his consultations (and it's clear that many did not), 10,000 bunkers removed would be twenty per course.  The actual number is probably closer to 40-50.

Were they all top-shot and out of play bunkers?
 
Just wondering......
« Last Edit: March 23, 2004, 09:59:29 AM by Mike_Cirba »

ForkaB

Re:Did Tillinghast "Sell Out"?
« Reply #48 on: March 23, 2004, 10:07:12 AM »
Agreed, Tom, if, you also agree that what he did in his PGA role just might have improved those courses, not just financially, but also as golf courses.  Until I see specific arguments, I don;t know.

Mike

I don't know either.  I've only played two Tillie's, SFGC and Brook Hollow, and I thought the former had quite enough bunkers, thank you, and cannot imagine the latter in it's original guise--good way of separating holes in the days before there were trees in Texas, but surely not a sustainable design today.  At least 1/2 of the 10,000 bunkers removed must have come from that course alone!  Both are great tracks and experiences, regardless.......


Bruce Katona

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Did Tillinghast "Sell Out"?
« Reply #49 on: March 23, 2004, 11:50:23 AM »
Someone said it earlier and the post about summer rules finally being in place in the early 1950's is a fine example; SURVIVAL for these clubs was the key.

How would we all feel if places like Baltusrol, Somerset Hills, Ridgewood, etc were lost because of the Great Depression?   We be debating on this site which of these wonderful clubs was an equal  to other memorable lost courses like The Lido.  Thankfully the funds, manpower and transportation were available to have someone of Tillie's talent work with many clubs to insure their survival.

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