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Andy Hodson

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How long is this course?
« on: April 12, 2004, 02:14:05 PM »
Following I will give average approach shots that I hit on the golf course where I work. It is a well maintained golf course, but I would not say we have reached TEP's ideal maintenance meld. It is not at altitude, on the contrary it suffers more from humidity (a poor medium for the ball to travel through), and has very little elevation changes (its in E. Texas).

Full disclosure: I am a golf professional of average to sllightly above average distance. The game here is to guess the total yardage from the tips this course is on the card based on the following:

#1   par 4          3-wood,   and  8 iron or less
#2   par 5          Driver,   iron second (almost no chance of hitting it in two)    at most a wedge left
#3   par 3           6 iron to middle
#4   par 4          Driver     6 iron
#5   par 5          Driver,   iron second,  gap or sand wedge
#6   par 4          Driver   at most 9 iron
#7   par 4          Driver    4-6 iron
#8   par 3            4-6 iron
#9   par 4          Driver       9 iron or less
#10 par 4          Driver       6-8 iron
#11 par 4          Driver       6-9 iron
#12 par 5          Driver      iron lay up (unless 3wood second)
                       wedge max left
#13 par 4          Driver    5 iron
#14 par 4          Driver    half wedge
#15 par 3           6 or 7 iron
#16 par 3           3wood or 1 iron
#17 par 5           Driver,  iron lay up (unless 3 wood second)
                        flip wedge
#18 par 4           Driver 5 or 6 iron

Q: What's the total length? And would you say this plays as a long golf course for the club professional?

Tony_Chapman

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Re:How long is this course?
« Reply #1 on: April 12, 2004, 02:19:07 PM »
Andy - I would say your are over 7,000 but less than 7,200. I am sure you will tell us you play at a 6,400 yard course.  ;)

ChrisHervochon

Re:How long is this course?
« Reply #2 on: April 12, 2004, 02:19:10 PM »
I am going to say 7400-7500 (my actual guess is 7470), and I would also say this course is medium long.

JakaB

Re:How long is this course?
« Reply #3 on: April 12, 2004, 02:20:24 PM »
Andy,

Sounds like a 7239 yd course I play...but not from those tees.

Matt Dupre

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Re:How long is this course?
« Reply #4 on: April 12, 2004, 02:33:36 PM »
I've got it at around 7,125, and it seems long because of some mid-irons into the par 4s, but the par 5s are probably a bit tricky (and short) as they don't seem to let you go for them.

Tim Taylor

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Re:How long is this course?
« Reply #5 on: April 12, 2004, 02:36:52 PM »
7240 yards. I based this on driver distance of 275-280, 3 wood of 235-250, 7 iron of 165, PW of 1325-135, etc.

One thing that wasn't clear - did you mean "average to above average distance" for a TOUR pro? A club pro? A scratch amateur?

Here's my breakdown:

1 - 390   10 - 435
2 - 550   11 - 430
3 - 175   12 - 600
4 - 450   13 - 450
5 - 575   14 - 350
6 - 415   15 - 175
7 - 440   16 - 235
8 - 175   17 - 585
9-  400   18 - 440
    3580       3660

Yes, that's a long course for club pros.

TimT

johnk

Re:How long is this course?
« Reply #6 on: April 12, 2004, 02:37:24 PM »
I think it's 7400 or there abouts.

Here's how I guessed:

Holes 1, 2,3 sound like : 400, 580+, 185
15, 16, 17 sound like: 180, 220, 530

I didn't do any math to compute the rest, but those distances sound like a 7400 yd course to me.

Does this sound like it plays long - yes, fairly long.  You play a reasonable (4-6) number of mid-long irons.  You pretty much hit all drivers, you have 2 hard to reach par 5s, and a long par 3.  That's a good, reasonably long mix.  If you aren't driving it well, those 5/6 irons would be 3/4 irons, and then it would definitely seem long.

If I were to play a course like this with my 8hcp, and use the same clubs, I'd figure it would be equivalent to 6800 here in Norcal, where you get no roll...

Back to back par 3s on #15 and #16... !!

Tim Taylor

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Re:How long is this course?
« Reply #7 on: April 12, 2004, 02:39:15 PM »
John Kavanaugh,

Wow, we are only one yard apart ;)

TimT

p.s. - are you the poster formerly known as JakaB?

Dan_Callahan

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Re:How long is this course?
« Reply #8 on: April 12, 2004, 02:59:45 PM »
7,190

Tiger_Bernhardt

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Re:How long is this course?
« Reply #9 on: April 12, 2004, 03:06:15 PM »
I almost remember the answer but will guess 7200 to stay in the spirit of the game. Andy is correct, the humidy does take distance away.
« Last Edit: April 12, 2004, 03:06:57 PM by Tiger_Bernhardt »

rjsimper

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Re:How long is this course?
« Reply #10 on: April 12, 2004, 04:44:34 PM »
7115 by my calculations....

Andy Hodson

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Re:How long is this course?
« Reply #11 on: April 12, 2004, 04:48:04 PM »
This golf course is 7330 yards long. A number that just a few years ago seemed extremely long. Especially at basically sea level. Your guesses were very good. Here is a breakdown of each hole:

#1   409   Big dogleg left. If the tee shot strays too far right it
              can add 40 yards to the approach
#2    576  Although I said not much elevation change, the
              drive is right into a hill. The hole plays much better
              at 520 yards
#3    194  Tee is 20' above the green
#4    443   Drive is into a slight incline
#5    579  
#6    396   Sharp dogleg right starting at 110 yards out. No
               way to cut the dogleg
#7    460   Plays true length. Second shot slightly uphill over  
               water
#8    194
#9    413   Plays shorter for longer hitters due to fairway
               sloping downhill at about 270 yards out
 Out  3664

#10   427   Slightly elevated tee
#11   416   Uphill the whole way. Plays longer than yardage
#12   551   Interesting hole. Slight double dogleg. Reachable
                with a long drive, but only if positioned on the
                right side of the fairway
#13   451   Straight into the prevailing wind. Can be a brute.
#14   392   Classic cape hole. Cut off enough and its a flip SW
#15   178   Tiny island target. Sporty hole from 135, tough
                when windy from 175
#16    228   210 or so of all carry. No bail out. Never plays
                 shorter than its true length
#17   560    usually a three shotter. Like #12 takes length
                 and positioning to have a go in two
#18   465    Must carry water on both shots. Plays straight
                 down the prevailing. Almost impossible when into
                 a north wind, have hit 8 iron in a south gale.
 IN     3666

My point with this exercise is to show scorecard length is just a number. How it actually plays is something different, and IMO more important. BtW, the course is Whispering Pines Golf Club (#3 in the state by GD), and I don't consider it a long golf course, even though the yardage says it is one of the 5 or 6 longest in Texas. Champions Cypress is shorter on the card, but plays much longer. I seem to just wear out my 3 and 4 irons there.

I just find all this discussion of the lengthening of Augusta, Torrey Pines, etc. and how far the ball is flying interesting. Length is so relevant to its context, and its just a number. What's more important are the shot values.

 
« Last Edit: April 12, 2004, 04:50:49 PM by Andy Hodson »

Doug Siebert

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Re:How long is this course?
« Reply #12 on: April 12, 2004, 05:12:44 PM »
You guys are wrong.  It is a common fallacy that humidity makes the ball travel shorter.  In actuality, it goes very slightly further in higher humidity, since humid air is actually less dense than dry air.  Counterintuitive, yes, but its true!  The effect of temperature and air pressure (yes the barometer has an effect on how far you hit it!) have a far larger effect on distance than humidity, however.

You can plug in numbers to this page to calculate the "density altitude" or relative density given the altitude, temperature, air pressure (what the web site calls altimeter setting) and dew point.  If you get a relative density of 90% with one set of readings and 100% with another, you can conclude you will carry the ball approximately 10% further in the 90% conditions, since the ball goes further in air that's less dense, at least up to some point well above where there are any golf courses.

The gain is slightly less than the 10% indicated because the less dense air reduces aerodynamic lift -- the reason why you have dimples on the ball.  But its pretty close, based on my experience just comparing the distance I get at 55 degrees and at 85 degrees.  Its probably a bit harder to notice the effect of air pressure, since it isn't something most people know unless they check the weather, or have joint problems, I suppose.  I plan to try and see if I can notice the effect this summer by checking air pressure readings after I play and comparing it to my impression of how far I was hitting it.  Might explain why one day I hit it a full club longer than two days later at the same temperature.


http://wahiduddin.net/calc/calc_da.htm


For example:

50F / 45F dew / 0 ft / 30.00 in barometer = 101.65%
90F / 45F dew / 0 ft / 30.00 in barmoeter =  94.25%
90F / 80F dew / 0 ft / 30.00 in barometer =  93.38%
90F / 80F dew / 0 ft / 29.00 in barometer =  90.22%
90F / 80F dew / 5280 ft / 29.00 in barometer = 73.99%
90F / 45F dew / 5280 ft / 29.00 in barometer = 74.86%


So if you want to hit the ball like Hank Kuehne, play in Denver on the hottest day of the year when the barometer is really low.  You will lose a couple yards on your tee shots since the dewpoint there is more likely to be 45F than 80F, but you'll still be out there pretty good!  I chose 80F as an extreme, it is very very rare for anywhere in the US to hit that (silly urban legends about "90/90 days" down South notwithstanding)

My hovercraft is full of eels.

tonyt

Re:How long is this course?
« Reply #13 on: April 12, 2004, 05:36:57 PM »
Andy, after starting to read your post, I quickly scrolled down to correct an error, but Doug has done it for me.

The ball flies FURTHER in humid conditions.

Andy Hodson

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Re:How long is this course?
« Reply #14 on: April 12, 2004, 06:51:47 PM »
Science may say so. Experience says no. Could be humidity's effect on the body.

rjsimper

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Re:How long is this course?
« Reply #15 on: April 12, 2004, 07:58:03 PM »
Andy, after starting to read your post, I quickly scrolled down to correct an error, but Doug has done it for me.

The ball flies FURTHER in humid conditions.

Can you tell me then why I hit the ball 10-15 percent further in Scottsdale?

Dan Grossman

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Re:How long is this course?
« Reply #16 on: April 12, 2004, 08:32:16 PM »
Andy -

I agree with you that length is in how the golf course plays.

Have you played Pasatiempo?  I think that is a golf course which plays extremely long, eventhough it is only 6400 yds.

#1 - Par 4 - Drive / Long Iron
#2 - Par 4 - Drive / Mid-iron
#3 - Par 3 - Fairway wood or long iron
#4 - Par 4 - Drive / short iron
#5 - Par 3 - Mid to long iron
#6 - Par 5 - Drive / iron / flip wedge
#7 - Par 4 - Drive / flip wedge
#8 - Par 3 - Short Iron
#9 - Par 5 - Drive / iron / flip wedge
#10 - Par 4 - Drive / long iron
#11 - Par 4 - Drive / mid-iron
#12 - Par 4 - Drive / flip wedge
#13 - Par 5 - Drive / iron / flip wedge
#14 - Par 4 - Drive / mid iron
#15 - Par 3 - Short Iron
#16 - Par 4 - Drive / short iron
#17 - Par 4 - Drive / short iron
#18 - Par 3 - mid iron

There are a ton of long / mid irons there for a very short golf course.  It is tight enough that you just can't bang away w/ driver on every hole either.

Steve Lang

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Re:How long is this course?
« Reply #17 on: April 12, 2004, 09:19:32 PM »
 8)

Hod,

How about visual impacts too..

#1 very deceptive of how much can be cut off without going through the faiway..
#2 intimidating first time
#3 very intimidating first time..

Drag forces on a golf ball.. check out

http://www.mame.syr.edu/simfluid/redder/dragforce/DragForce.html

For those who doubt Doug..

Coefficient of Drag,
Cd = 8 x Drag on Sphere / pi x density of gas x (dia sphere squared) x (velocity of ball squared)

rearranging..

Drag = Cd x pi x density x dia squared x velocity squared / 8

so lower density (when there's moisture in the air or at altitude) translates into less drag and more distance for a given ball speed off a club.

Frankly, I hit the ball farther in Phoenix because of the slight altitude above sea level, but mainly because i'm on vacation and relaxed..
Inverness (Toledo, OH) cathedral clock inscription: "God measures men by what they are. Not what they in wealth possess.  That vibrant message chimes afar.
The voice of Inverness"

Doug Siebert

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Re:How long is this course?
« Reply #18 on: April 13, 2004, 01:56:22 AM »
Ryan, several reasons you probably hit it further in Scottsdale:

1) its at 1250 feet elevation, what is your "normal" elevation?
2) its probably hotter there than it is at home
3) its a desert, so water saving measures probably mean the fairways probably play more fast-n-firm than they do at home

Here in Iowa I can see quite a wide range of humidity over just a few days.  It gets as humid here as it does anywhere in the US, but unlike the deep south where it is very humid the vast majority of the time during the summer, here we may have a stretch of a week or two of stifling humidity followed by some pleasantly dry weather with dewpoints in the low 50s.  I never notice any difference in how far I hit it between a dry day and a humid day, assuming the same temperature.  I noticed that long before I learned that humidity makes the air less dense, and thus there is no such thing as "heavy air".  Like you say, maybe it is just the humidity exhausting you.  Or maybe, like me, you don't wear a glove and thus have to throttle back your swing a bit when its particularly humid to keep the club from flying out of your hands ;)
My hovercraft is full of eels.

Andy Hodson

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Re:How long is this course?
« Reply #19 on: April 13, 2004, 08:46:34 AM »
Dan
That's interesting about Pasa, and along the lines of this nebulous idea about length that's stewing in my mind.

Some courses just play longer than their length. Some just play shorter.

Some of it is due to where their length is. WPGC has (relatively) a lot of length in its par 5s (551-580yds) and its par 3s (178-228yds). I think courses that have their length in their par 4s play longer, regardless of the number on the card, than one like WP that has it in its other holes.

Tim Taylor

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Re:How long is this course?
« Reply #20 on: April 13, 2004, 09:13:20 AM »
Dan,

I just played Pasatiempo last week. A buddy of mine played it for the first time. He concurs with me that it is, in fact, the longest 6400 yard course ever. We played from the blues and my shots were similar to yours.

#1 - D, 5I
#2 - D, 8I (flyer from left rough)
#3 - 4W
#4 - D, PW
#5 - 4I
#6 - D, knock down 6I, knock down 8I
#7 - 4W, 8I (over the green :'()
#8 - 7I
#9 - D, 7I, PW
#10 - D, 3I (under trees by cartpath)
#11 - D, 5I (long drive, but right center of fairway)
#12 - n/a (4W hooked into barranca)
#13 - D, 7I PW (first drive in back yard of $1M house :))
#14 - D, 8I (not enough club to reach green, needed to clear tree on right side of fairway)
#15 - 9I
#16 - D, 3I (drop in lateral hazard :( did hit a nice big hook onto the green to make bogey)
#17 - D, 8I
#18 - 6I into back bunker

I thought I hit the ball reasonably well but only shot 93. That's Pasatiempo. It punishes less-than-perfect shots, especially into the greens. Still and all, one of the top 3 courses *I've* ever played.

TimT

Andy -

I agree with you that length is in how the golf course plays.

Have you played Pasatiempo?  I think that is a golf course which plays extremely long, eventhough it is only 6400 yds.

#1 - Par 4 - Drive / Long Iron
#2 - Par 4 - Drive / Mid-iron
#3 - Par 3 - Fairway wood or long iron
#4 - Par 4 - Drive / short iron
#5 - Par 3 - Mid to long iron
#6 - Par 5 - Drive / iron / flip wedge
#7 - Par 4 - Drive / flip wedge
#8 - Par 3 - Short Iron
#9 - Par 5 - Drive / iron / flip wedge
#10 - Par 4 - Drive / long iron
#11 - Par 4 - Drive / mid-iron
#12 - Par 4 - Drive / flip wedge
#13 - Par 5 - Drive / iron / flip wedge
#14 - Par 4 - Drive / mid iron
#15 - Par 3 - Short Iron
#16 - Par 4 - Drive / short iron
#17 - Par 4 - Drive / short iron
#18 - Par 3 - mid iron

There are a ton of long / mid irons there for a very short golf course.  It is tight enough that you just can't bang away w/ driver on every hole either.
 

Lou_Duran

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Re:How long is this course?
« Reply #21 on: April 13, 2004, 10:12:35 AM »
Having played quite a bit of golf in Houston (higher humidity) and Dallas (dryer), the ball does not seem to go as far in the former.  While it is impossible to account for and hold all the other variables equal, in general, and contrary to the science, the ball seems to travel further in dry climates.  Perhaps this is due to ground firmness and altitude (which is correlated with climatic conditions).

Longest short course:  Harbour Town; Olympic-Lake

Shortest long course:  Colonial Country Club (Fort Worth); Twin Warriors (north of Albequerque)

Re: Whispering Pines, while I agree with Mr. Hodson's main points, the course from the back markers is anything but short for us mere mortals.  Andy just happens to be a fine striker of the ball and sneaky LONG.  For GCAers like him, Brad Swanson (who make Paaki-Ridge a mere pitch and putt), Matt Ward, Redanman, Dan Grossman, shivas, Brian Gracely, and several others, no course is too long.  For most of us, there are no short courses, just some more strategic than others.


Phil_the_Author

Re:How long is this course?
« Reply #22 on: April 13, 2004, 05:47:53 PM »
For many years, A.W. Tillinghast spoke about how a golf hole, and therefor a golf course, was, "only as long as it plays."

Angle of play, proper use and placement of hazards, greens and tees angled to the line of play; His courses are still the standard for the phrase, 'great tough challenge,' in relationship to golf courses.

johnk

Re:How long is this course?
« Reply #23 on: April 14, 2004, 01:19:31 AM »
Speaking of Tillie - SFGC is another course that plays much longer than the yardage would indicate - 380 yd par fours that seem like 430.  Wetness, cold and sneaky slopes don't help.

Andy Hodson

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Re:How long is this course?
« Reply #24 on: April 14, 2004, 12:44:07 PM »
One of the thoughts bouncing around in me is this idea of, through the use of architectural techniques, making a course play "longer" than it really is. I don't mean cross bunkers or hazards at 265 yds off the tee, but other ways to "lengthen" out holes.

One way, in my experience, that holes play longer is when the green site, or specific hole location on said green,  is smaller than expected for the club required.

I'd love to hear from the archies on here 1) if this is a considered technique on some holes or courses and 2) if so, what are the actual techniques that can be employed to accomplish this.