Cypress Point and playing the ninth....

[THuckaby2]

Obviously I too can't see the advantage laying back here.  I guess one would only do that if:

a) he is very wild with the driver; and
b) he really doesn't want to hit from the left front bunker.

And Bob, as for Dave Pelz - oh I am no big follower of him either... but his thoughts on this subject were compelling - as per everything he does, he gave all sorts of data on why nearly all golfers are better off getting as close to the green as they can....

TH

[Mike Hendren]

Shivas,

Was that pic taken from the 8th green?  If so, it could reflect the original line off the tee.

MIke

[ForkaB]

I think that the Cypress caddies hand out 6-irons on the 9th tee like sweeties because they are a lazy self-indulgent lot who don't want to spend time trekking through the sand and iceplant and shrubs trying to find Joe six-pack's lost pelotas.

And, as for you studs who can hit that green, you must be ubermenschen.  The right front is a 270 carry or so from the back tees, and if you are just a little bit short, the 25 degree ramp up to the green stops you as cold as ice, and if you land on the green you have about a 10-yards circle to land in before your ball bounds through the green into the dunes.  Maybe a hard slinging Papazianish hook that lands at about 220 on the edge of the right semi with a LOT of juice and is PERFECTLY placed might get there.  I'd have to see it to believe it!

Overall it's a classic hole, but just a very good one, not great, like 8, and not as good as #10 Belfry for a match play hole.  IMHO.

[THuckaby2]

Richard:

No way I can get to that green - you and I discussed this before and we both noted the ramp in front of the green.  But as I recall, you said you hit that ramp on the fly... and if you can hit that on the fly, then guys like Shivas, Wigler, Josh Taylor, other long hitters can surely get over it, and on to the front right.  Oh it takes a big hit, but to me it's not unbelievable at all.  So for these guys, heck yeah, go for it. Then look at it this way also - even if the ramp stops it, the pitch/chip/putt up from there is as simple a 2nd as can exist on the golf hole.

My take is more not about reaching the green though - look at the pic - the widest part of the golf hole - by FAR is about 250 off the tee.  And man that is VERY wide... the day I can't hit a driver into that kind of width is the day I end it all.  And that leaves a 50 or so yard pitch up the green, effectively playing 70... which means a pretty big swing with an L wedge.  Put all that together and the wisdom of laying back is really lost on me.

As for the greatness of the golf hole - hell it's fantastic by me.  Your standards are as high as mine are low, I guess.

 

[ed_getka]

It makes more sense to layup with a long iron as far down the fairway as you can to give a better angle up the green if you are not going to try to drive the green. Unless of course you don't have a short game.

[THuckaby2]

Ed: concur.  Only change "long iron" to "driver".

 

[THuckaby2]

Dave - but if if it becomes unreachable - and yes, that day will come, even for you - would you ever lay back to 100 on this hole, given the nature of the green and the fact that 100 is the absolute narrowest part of that fairway, with death on both sides?

Hey I'm Driver Myron all the time (that is, I hit my driver just as shitty as my low irons, so I just go ahead and hit that even on layups - but I do go for fat areas a lot) - I just don't see the logic of laying back on this hole - and it is unreachable for the vast majority of players.

TH

[Mike Benham]

Dave - but if if it becomes unreachable - and yes, that day will come, even for you - would you ever lay back to 100 on this hole, given the nature of the green and the fact that 100 is the absolute narrowest part of that fairway, with death on both sides?

But what if the hole location is front right?  Even if you can't (won't ) drive the green wouldn't you prefer to have a 20-30 yard bump and run then a full sand wedge that could be pulled/pushed into trouble, or spin back off the green?

Mike

[THuckaby2]

Mike:

Re right pin, seems to me one can easily putt up that front face also... I think it's way easier to get close from way up close than it is from 100 there - in fact quite a bit more so than re the left pin.   In fact right pin makes this tantamout to a no-brainer - there really is no reason to lay back.  As you say, way more bad things can happen from 100 to that pin.

TH

[Darren_Kilfara]

Brian, I defer to your greater knowledge about how the pros played #10 at Riviera last year. You have to admit, though, that the telling part of your statement is "they just couldn't help themselves" - which might also be the case at CPC #9, but somehow I think the more visible dangers of long grass and deep sand might scare more pros than the less tangible dangers of awkward angles at Riviera #10.

In any event, I might concede that driver is a good play for the average player, because his wedge game isn't a sure thing for accuracy or distance control. For the professional, however, the money play has to be an iron off the tee, doesn't it?

Cheers,
Darren

[THuckaby2]

In any event, I might concede that driver is a good play for the average player, because his wedge game isn't a sure thing for accuracy or distance control. For the professional, however, the money play has to be an iron off the tee, doesn't it?

Cheers,
Darren

Heck yeah, I'd say a pro hits iron off that tee for sure - but these guys hit 2irons as far as the average player hits a driver anyway, so we are talking the same thing.  My feeling is a pro might go for the green to a front right pin - especially if he's feeling like a 2 can really help him - but he has such little chance of stopping a tee shot going at the top left shelf that it takes the realistic chance at a 2 out of the equation, so he plays to his strength for the 2nd shot if the pin is left.  I still think that means he gets it to 50 yards or so short, so he can hit a spinning effectively 70 yard L wedge, only because again, the area there is so much wider that he can absolutely no-brain the tee shot and take all trouble out of play, whereas at 100 the possiblity exists to get into some gunk.

Anyway, the pros are such a tiny minority of players, how they play this remains a curiousity at best - to me anyway.  I'm much more interested in how it plays for the real world.

TH

[Craig Van Egmond]

In my one chance to play the 9th, I did listen to the caddie and hit a 6 iron off the tee, only to find out I could have hit way more club.  

If I ever have another chance I will ignore the caddy and hit a driver or 3 wood.

[Brian Phillips]

Brian, I defer to your greater knowledge about how the pros played #10 at Riviera last year. You have to admit, though, that the telling part of your statement is "they just couldn't help themselves" - which might also be the case at CPC #9, but somehow I think the more visible dangers of long grass and deep sand might scare more pros than the less tangible dangers of awkward angles at Riviera #10.

In any event, I might concede that driver is a good play for the average player, because his wedge game isn't a sure thing for accuracy or distance control. For the professional, however, the money play has to be an iron off the tee, doesn't it?

Cheers,
Darren

Yes, I think you are spot on Darren, the risk (it seems) is far greater than the reward at CPC than at Riviera.  There just doesn't seem to be any point in trying to bomb that green CPC's green.

Brian

[golfer4life]

Newbie's veiw of front right pin.  

In my opinion, that pin takes some of the width out of the fairway.  The chip from the left size of the fairway is to a green that slopes severly away and to the right from you.   Not to mention the huge face of the bunker (which is now much more tame after they replaced the sand).  The fairway slops away from right to left, so for the chip you will likely have the ball above your feet.  All in all, not a shot I practice.  

Either way, from my experience there, trying to hit to the wide part of the fairway can still cause problems, long and short.  I would rather hit a full shot than be in the left side of the fairway.  However, I would also rather chip from the right side of the fairway, than have a full shot.  I am just not that accurate with my woods.

Eitherway, great hole.. fun stuff to think about.

Also my sources tell me in 2000 during US Open, Tiger hit 3-wood here, and Lefty hit driver.

[TEPaul]

For a FASCINTATING golf hole comprised almost completely of NATURAL features almost all of which were completely used as is with just about nothing else man-made, I can't think of another hole in the world that's quite so sublime that way as CPC's #9! It's so interesting to contemplate whether another architect would've picked up on it's natural potential as totally as Mackenzie did.

This remark is not speculative either as comparative photographs before any construction and immediately following completion of the hole from almost the exact same vantage show this to be so. Both before and after photographs are in GeoffShac's book "Alister Mackenzie's Cypress Point Golf Club".

One can see that Mackenzie basically built tees, LAYED DOWN a fairway and a green all on existing terrain without even apparently touching the shape of the landforms, cleaned up a bit of scrub and deadwood in an existing sand area to the left of the fairway, built a bunker to the right of the fairway just before the green (God know's why as it was all beautiful natural sand waste anyway to the right of the enormous sand mound).

This is a hole that it could probably be fairly said he moved about two tablespoons of earth. And this is also a perfect example of how golf architecture can appear completely natural even WITH those 3-4 EXCEPTIONS Max Behr made to total naturalism in golf architecture---eg tees, fairways, greens, and (bunkers on some sites without indigenous sand and rough).

This is the idea and concept Richard Goodale has been struggling to understand the meaning of for about the 4-5 years I've known him. I don't think he'll ever come to understand what architects like MacKenzie and Behr were talking about when they discussed naturalism in architecture and its parameters and limitations (those 3-5 exceptions necessary to golf that may never allow a golf course to look completely natural). All he really has to do is look at CPC's #9 to understand  but I fear even that won't help him understand!

For some odd reason he seems to assume that naturalism in architecture must ONLY mean a site has to look like golf couldn't be played on it as it is! The man has a mind but he doesn't understand and he has eyes but he doesn't see! I guess that sort of adds up to not much imagination!    

[James Edwards]

Personally,

Iron, Wedge every time..  I'm better with the wedge than a driver!  If the pin is at the front, could tempt me for a split second, but the wedge from 100 leaves an open approach to the flag.  Place the pin at the back and I am always going to have a second from the fairway from 100 yards to leave an uphill put..  Far better than leaving a 30 yard bunker shot to an elevated pin with a drop off on the other side.

Well done if you drive it and make 3!  but thats the stressful way although exciting way..  Me, Iron, Wedge, putt, next tee, etc etc - boring but isn't life easy!!!

The Architect is asking as the question on the tee...... ignore it!

[THuckaby2]

James:

I can understand that... but I think you are misjudging the golf hole.

Note:

1. There's no drop off behind the green nor on the left, and the drop to the right just means it rolls down the tier and stays on the green.  So I don't understand the fear of playing from the front bunker... It's not all that tough of a golf shot - not enough to affect the thinking, I believe.  Most of the area behind the green is a bank that will stop a ball and kick it back on the green, unless you are very unlucky.  The far back left is flat, melding into the 10th tee - one can easily putt from there.

2. It is SO much wider at 250+ from the tee than it is at 200 or less that for me it changes the thinking... a 190 shot, to leave that 100 approach you seem to desire, has to be fit into a pretty tight area.

3. Wherever you leave the tee shot, remember back left pin means 15 yards or so more for the approach, effectively...

Does any of this change your thinking?

TH

[A_Clay_Man]

Those that are cavalier about pulling-out the big stick on this hole, I ask you:

Would you be so cavalier in a medal event?

[ForkaB]

This is a bit OT, but from another thread it got me to wonder......

Is #9 at CPC the archetypal "Spien Kop" hole?  It fits the mold perfectly, and certainly trumps the ones I have seen.  Given Dr. MacK's experience of the Boer War, could he have been the creator of this comcept?

[THuckaby2]

Adam:

Absolutely.  I figure driver gets me to a point that's about 50 yards wide... 2iron or less means 25 or so.  I am way more confident fitting driver into 50 yards than any iron into 25.

Do I have those widths wrong?

TH

[THuckaby2]

This is a bit OT, but from another thread it got me to wonder......

Is #9 at CPC the archetypal "Spien Kop" hole?  It fits the mold perfectly, and certainly trumps the ones I have seen.  Given Dr. MacK's experience of the Boer War, could he have been the creator of this comcept?

You've lost me there, and I'm not ashamed to admit it and don't feel like looking it up!  I think I've heard this term... man I have read all the books on MacKenzie... but ok, I'll ask:  what the hell is a Spien Kop hole?

TH

[James Edwards]

Tom,

Thank you for your thoughts...

I would like to think I haven't misjudged the hole, but rather I have entered into the 'sport of the hole' and the thinking of the architect.  I have elected the option which he didn't want me to take... (what would you say?)

When I was there last month, we stood on the green for 30 minutes and talked strategy with the assistant...  We even rolled golf balls down from the extreme left of the green to the bottom pin for 20 minutes or so, maybe longer to understand the contours of the green and the speed and trying to execute the perfect putt.  We couldn't stop the ball from ontop down to the bottom pin - thats how quick it was.

1.  Clearly you are a fine player Tom if you don't fear bunker shots from deep bunkers to shallow greens ... from possible uneven lies/waste areas..  (no cyber sarcasm)  but granted, I too can play a few shots and would not have a problem executing a particular shot, but is it more difficult to do so?   I suppose I was referring to the severe down hill nature of any shot that goes long with the speed of green I observed some days ago.

2.  Yes, I see what you are saying, but how wide is a par 3 green at 190 yards?  I personally would expect to hit a fairway some x amount of yards wider than a normal par 3 green with a 4 iron or so.  From my observations off that tee, I would see the inviting nature of the challenge but I have one shot in mind for my second, unlike the Driver which could throw up more than 5 different shots - maybe it's just my Driving?

3.  Agreed.


James

[THuckaby2]

James:

That is all understood... and I meant no offense by saying you might have misunderstood the golf hole!  It just seemed to me like those things I listed you might have overlooked.  As for how to play it, well... we all know our strengths and weaknesses.  As for me, hell I am no great player - I'm a struggling 5 handicap who never has time to practice.  That being said, when I see an area twice as wide for the driver, well... it is a powerful incentive to me - and I don't really care what the architect intends or doesn't!  Give me 50 yards into which to hit a driver, and I'm gonna have a hard time NOT hitting it there.

Then I also factor in the shot from 100 plays more like 115... and the spin one generates from there can just as easily mean rolling back down the tier as just getting the ball to stop...

Well, I don't see the positives of laying back.  To me, you create two harder shots when two pretty easy ones are available, with the only risk being hitting a driver into a 50 yard wide fairway.

One more thing - the 30 yard bunker shot is from the front bunker, and that is raked.  Oh, no way do I ever want the shot from the waste area shorter and to the left... but there is grass in between that and the bunker, effectively 250 off the tee.  

The way I look at it, a halfway decent driver leaves me about 50 yards, playing 65-70.  That's a pretty hard swing with an L wedge, not a difficult shot.  Risk is hitting it too well and going in front bunker - which is raked, is not all that tough a shot; or blowing one right, which what the hell can happen just as well with an iron anyway, given the smaller area to hit into.

I don't see how driver gives 5 different shots and iron gives exactly one... unless one is VERY VERY wild with the driver, in which case 50 yards is too narrow and he should never hit driver anywhere....and hell, that kinda player can't be much better with a low iron into a 25 yard area anyway!

TH

[James Edwards]

Tom,

OT - Thats a good handicap Mr Huckaby - I will remember that when we finally meet for a round or two...  no hussling!!

Yes, I'm staring at my lap top and the pictures of 9 from behind, side, up, down, infront, underneath and from even on top of the large dune behind which took me 5 minutes and a torn pair of pants..and which offers the best view of the hole...

I am sort of confused about the hole now you have described your opinions, which interested me greatly enough to wipe the cob webs off the laptop and view the Cypress Files.. I CAN see your option clearly and I can see mine also.  I can see where the 50 yards wide fairway is now (or whatever it is), but from my snaps, there is no shot if you go right by the looks of things... and if you go for the wide fairway you have to carry the bunker on the corner.  As you correctly say, a raked bunker short left with a waste area between another bunker with wild grasses around the edges.  The back bunker to the right has no shot, (I believe to a front pin) unless you have square grooves as we tested the theory.  So Yes I can see the incentive if you can drive the ball straight into this area and also mine if you are an average driver (better iron player)


Yes, the 5 different shots are the exagerated distances/places Drivers can make bad shots go in comparison to an Iron -  the bunker shot, short left, the bunker shot short short left, waste shot, short left, Waste shot right, or centre fairway shot lob to back pin, centre fairway run up shot etc etc.  I was saying the iron would leave the fairway shot - pretty much every time from 100 or so yards..  Tom, I suppose I am just an average driver with a lack of confidence...  So I am in the market to buy your driver swing!!

[THuckaby2]

James, we'll get more confidence in your driver and then this will all make sense.     I swear when I look at that I see a very wide place to hit a driver... but maybe that's overconfidence on my part!  I will say this though:  I am four for four in hitting that fairway, leaving the shot I describe.

But I can see right being death - and death it is, unplayable unless one gets lucky - being enough to keep the driver in the bag.  I will say this - in a wind blowing right, I might be tempted to go with iron also.

But darn that area into which to hit an iron looks pretty tight to me also!

It's been awhile since I've been there - I could have a lot of this wrong.  But the pics do jive with my memory....

TH