Which Par 4's and Par 5's present Variety & Challenge on every shot ?

[Patrick_Mucci]

What holes present the greatest variety and challenge,
on the tee shot, approach shots and recovery shots ?

A later, bonus question will include putting, but, let's confine the discussion to the first three, first.

For those not familiar with the hole/s you pick, describe why.

I'll start by nominating # 8 at NGLA and # 13 at ANGC and address the balance of the question later.

[rjsimper]

13 at Rustic Canyon...

Tee shot from the tips can go left or right of the center bunker (unless you can carry it 270 comfortably)...base your decision on the pin

Second shot can either go for the green, but depending on the pin, this may not be good given that being on the wrong half of the green is probably worse off than laying back for a SW...

Third shot to an interesting and challenging horseshoe green with some impossible spots to miss...


Nothing spectatular about the hole like a rae's creek or a pacific ocean, but you've definitely got to think on all three shots...or on both of them if youre lucky.

[DPL11]

In keeping with the #13 theme, I'll nominate the one at Pine Valley GC.

Favoring right of center with your tee ball is recommended, or anything left of that will risk rolling down into the junk and leaving slim opportunities for recovery.

The approach shot can be achieved with many options.

     1. Directly at the flag and over the gunge.
     2. A low slinger with nothing but room for a ground play.
     3. Bail out right.

[Gerry B]

18 at the belfry
18 at yale
that great par 4 on the front at Brookline -either # 3 or 4
11 and 13 at shoreacres  -short tight par 4's with various problems if you miss the fairway or the green
3 and 14 at Olympia Fields North
4, 7 and 12 at The National in Toronto

13 at Pine Valley was mentioned - totally agree with trouble to be found on that par 4 1/2
16 at Merion if you miss the fairway
12 at Merion
16 at Olympic Club Lakes
4 and 5 at Bethpage Black

to name a few

[Mike Benham]

For par 4's, I'll nominate #8 at Pebble ... the tee shot is commonly called "easy" with the attempt to just lay-up.  However, it is a blind tee shot that has considerable rise from the tee box to the fairway.  

The approach shot needs no explanation.

[brad_miller]

Two of my favorite holes in the world, the par 4 8th at Prairie Dunes and the par 5 8th at Crystal Downs. Location and angle on the drive and second shot. Just two of the worlds best found holes.

[Doug Siebert]

How could no one have mentioned #17 TOC yet?  I suppose it isn't terribly tough if you decide up front to play it as a par 5, but that's true of most par 4s that don't require a heroic carry like #8 Pebble.  As a four, you need either a good drive and a great approach, or a great and truly bold drive and a good approach to be in position to two putt, and that two putt isn't a guarantee if the pin isn't in a receptive position.

There are such a wide variety of places you can find yourself and recovery options from them (OK, maybe recovery options from the Road Bunker are limited) that you can pretty much pick a club at random from your bag and have an option to fit it.  Just bring your imagination.

And that all that description is for a windless day.  Throw in the typical winds that blow around that course and you really need to be on top of your game to par the thing.

[TEPaul]

For a par 4 I'd nominate Maidstone's #9 (probably my favorite par 4 in the world--certainly in look). For a par 5 I'd nominate NGLA''s short par 5 #18 and I'm surprised Pat didn't in his initial post.

For a new hole I'd nominate the 18th at a course nobody on here is probably aware of--Royal Amelia Links--a course that's apparently really struggling right now. The 18th there is sort of bizarre, very narrow and not too apparent on the drive, then crossing over a narrow water hazard on the second and fanning way out in space at the end with the fairly interesting green set way over to the left and a ton of fairway alongside the green on the right. It is somewhat strange all in all but it's the kind of hole you just want to keep going back and playing over again in different ways!

[Patrick_Mucci]

Doug Siebert,

Do you feel that # 17 at TOC offers you that many options off the tee ?  Can you hit a low running draw ?

TEPaul,

# 18 at NGLA fits the bill for a par 5... wonderfully

[Gene Greco]

Pat:

   Did I hear Tom correctly?

He did say 18 NGLA as a par 5 and didn't mention anything about it needing to be par 4?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Redanman,

Isn't the approach at # 12 at PV pretty much of a LOB wedge these days.

Gene,

Yes, I noticed that.

[Doug Wright]

Patrick,

One of the great things about courses in windy coastal (or other) areas is the variety and challenge they present on a daily, round by round basis with the varying conditions. A few examples: Ballybunion Old #11, Pacific Dunes #2 and #4 (and of course #9, which features two greens rotated on a daily basis--talk about variety!), your favourite Bandon Dunes #5 (I'd also nominate BD #4), Sand Hills #16.

I'd also say that Pete Dye is a master at creating variety and challenge on holes in his courses.

Best,

[SPDB]

Pat - I recall you starting a similar thread last year, in which you cited Piping Rock #6 as a good example of a Par 5.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Doug Wright,

Courses fortunate to be located where wind is substantive are fortunate indeed.

SPDB,

How could I have forgotten that hole.

I believe I also lamented that some bunkers in the drive zone had been filled in, but, that's definitely a wonderful hole on the drive, second and approach shot, with recovery and putting made even more challenging by that unique green.

[SPDB]

Pat - Have you played it since they recaptured greenspace to the left? Also, are you sure bunkers have been filled in in the drive zone?

[Patrick_Mucci]

SPDB,

My recollection was that bunkers in the left side rough had been either partially filled in or let go to grass.  It's also possible that some bunkers may have been lost in the second shot zone.  I don't recall the right side features as well.

Perhaps a review of aerials pre and post Dye/Doak's work would tell the tale.

On the two times I played it, the pin was in the back of the upper tier so I didn't carefully examine the front left side, but, it seemed expansive.

[Mike Benham]

AS for #8 PBGL, any fairway that has a natural island character to it limits options. (The second becomes a no-can-do for the short hitter.  Angles create the most options, just check the courses on the DYE list.  

Just because the short-hitter can't reach the green in two, doesn't mean there isn't challenge and variety as to where to layup ...

[Neil Regan]

A "correspondent" in the USGA Bulletin December 1925 responded to the Peripatetic
Golfer regarding the subject of this thread. He offered a diagram, and mention is made of Pine Valley 7th and Ekwanok 7th as splendid 3-shot holes. The diagrammed hole appears to present Variety & Challenge on every shot.

  Does anybody know who the Peripatetic Golfer was, and who the "correspondent" might be who drew this diagram. Was Max Behr one of them, and a prior Mucci the other ?

[Neil Regan]

[TEPaul]

I believe I can see the ball right in the middle of that concave cut in the treeline behind. It better start drawing sometime soon or you just might have one helluva steep bunker shot!  

[TEPaul]

By the way, that's a very fine looking finish on that swing!!

[TEPaul]

Would you all just look at that photo from that tee! I mean, come on now, it doesn't get any better or better looking than that. That hole is at the top of my list in the world!

[TEPaul]

I'd like to know who the "Perpatetic Golfer" was too. Whoever he was Tillinghast and Behr used to really get into it with him in writing sometimes on fundamentals, details and nuances of golf architecture---the very same type of discussions and debates we should have more of on here today.

I have that response above to the "Perpatetic Golfer" around here somewhere with the writer's name on it. It was Tillinghast or Behr though. I'll try to dig it up later.

[TEPaul]

It should also be mentioned that the subjects and articles for the USGA Bulletin in that day were generated basically by Charles V. Piper (The Chairman) in an effort to expand the reach and importance of the "Bulletin" to particularly agronomy but also architecture and basically all things related. Piper at first asked Hugh Wilson (around 1921) to write a book for the new Green Section on architecture but Alan Wilson wrote Piper Hugh was too busy. (By the time that article above was written Hugh Wilson had died at 45).

It's my belief that Piper sent out a questionaire to all American architects asking them for their written feelings on golf architecture and it's entire philosophy. Some obviously responded but by no means all.

Certainly William Flynn did and I think that request was also perhaps the thing that got Max Behr to write his fascinating series of "essays".

[Cory Lewis]

Par 4 that presents most variety is hole 5 on #2.  Where you are in the fairway or rough determines your strategy in approaching the green.  You have to decide whether you can fly it on the green and hold it or try and run it up into the gap and risk going left, right, or over and having to make an amazing recovery shot depending on where the pin is.  Short is always better than long on the hole but short does not mean an easy chip because of the crowned green and bunkers that await errant shots.  My favorite hole in the world.  I've played it at least 50 times and only birdied it once!